Labs should not be mandatory.

"

Turtledove wrote:

People with the "git gud" message are missing the mark. Labyrinth is loathsome content to run through, not because it is hard but because it is boring and not fun for some. I haven't ever gotten a carry through the labyrinth. The only reason to do it though is because Izaro can be hard. If Izaro kills you then you have to run through the whole loathsome content again. That's the only reason I can think of to want a carry because even if you hire someone to carry you, one must still run through all or almost all the loathsome content. If you hire someone to carry you then it's just once.

Thank you to GGG for listening to us and reducing the loathsome content significantly in 3.0. It's much appreciated. I hope that further improvements will be made in future releases because as the thread title says, "Labs should not be mandatory".

No they are not missing the mark.

They simply accept, that the lab is part of the game.
GGG dumbed it down a lot, really a lot and its very unlikely they´ll do more any time soon.

If GGG removed the lab or provided an alternative simply based on the ground, that some players dont like the content, what do you think will happen next?
Thankful players throwing money at GGG or the next "I dont like this, remove it"-thread, right after the "We did it reddit"-celebrations?
And if GGG caves in again, the next thread will pop up.

In the end the community would balance the game via straw polls.
GGG has to stop such nonsense and they cant cave in, if they want to stay in control of their own game and show who´s boss.

Why is that so hard to understand?
They did what they could without caving in and thats where you should stop demanding more.

"

Orbaal wrote:

<Turtledove writes something sensible here>

No they are not missing the mark.

They simply accept, that the lab is part of the game.
GGG dumbed it down a lot, really a lot and its very unlikely they´ll do more any time soon.

If GGG removed the lab or provided an alternative simply based on the ground, that some players dont like the content, what do you think will happen next?
Thankful players throwing money at GGG or the next "I dont like this, remove it"-thread, right after the "We did it reddit"-celebrations?
And if GGG caves in again, the next thread will pop up.

In the end the community would balance the game via straw polls.
GGG has to stop such nonsense and they cant cave in, if they want to stay in control of their own game and show who´s boss.

Why is that so hard to understand?
They did what they could without caving in and thats where you should stop demanding more.

You just fell down a long and slippery slope:



I'd like to caution against repeatedly relying on the slippery slope fallacy. At first all that happens is people notice you're struggling with forming a convincing argument about a single issue (which happens to all of us, from time to time). But, when you keep doing it, mankind goes extinct and planet earth blows up in a fiery explosion.

Hopefully we can all agree not to cause planet earth to blow up in a fiery explosion through excessive use of the slippery slope fallacy. Humanity not going extinct might also be a good thing.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

"

EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Your claim is untrue.

SSF and non-SSF are substitutes for each other, for each character. Anything that tips the balance further in favor of SSF drains players away from more social modes of play. Better drop rates for SSF would convince more players to opt out of leagues for which trade is possible, in favor of higher drop rates and less hassles with trading.

Anybody who wants to play in a league with trade has an incentive to not see SSF attract a huge portion of the playerbase, just as GGG does not. By keeping drop rates equal across all leagues, only those who find SSF appealing on its own merits opt for SSF play. Which they would probably do even if SSF leagues didn't exist, so formalizing their status through an SSF league probably doesn't move the needle much on which league players choose for any given character.

Keeping drop rates equal across SSF and non-SSF leagues probably works best for everybody, in the long run.

Maybe, but that doesn't automatically imply that trade should always feel like a "chore" instead of a "pleasant experience".

Trading and/or RNG crafting are miles ahead "the way the game is meant to be played" aka "killing monsters and receiving loot".

Even GGG should acknowledge that as soon as trade and/or RNG crafting are better ways to find "upgrades", you do have a problem regarding itemisation and danger/reward ratios that needs to be addressed...

SSF or no SSF, the introduction of Divination cards provided a more deterministic way of reaching a set goal IF you sunk enough "time and effort" towards it. Prophecies too. So why not have the difficult fights like bosses, multi modded essence monsters etc. provide a loot (and fair EXP reward) incentive that has a small concession like not rolling certain "useless" mods on items, and adjusting the other rolls value to offset that impact?

That way you would still depend a lot on RNG to drop the higher tiers of "useful" mods, but you would feel rewarded that due to your fight, you dropped an item that has the a better chance at providing an upgrade - and this is especially true as soon as you finished the storyline content...

I hear what you're saying and I believe you're asking important questions.

But, I'm not sure the questions you're posing are easy to answer. Also, in the absence of solid reasons to believe that the current paradigm for itemization will change, perhaps it's better to keep SSF as something reserved for those who truly enjoy it for the challenge it provides, rather than as a way to avoid dealing with trading.

"

EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

You just fell down a long and slippery slope:

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Slippery_slope

*snip*

No I didnt.

I´m working as a dev myself, attending meetings where user feedback is being discussed and I can tell you from my experience, that devs do fear this potential chain reaction. The power of the outrage internet culture is not to be underestimated.

But you are right, I cant possibly back my claims with facts nor do I know GGGs stance on the subject. Which means, Im assuming GGG would react like other dev teams - which might be wrong.

Point is:
I didnt make up a fallacy.
Devs like to be in control of their own projects and thus they cant cave in to please everyone.


I´m fully aware, that you might just call this post another fallacy.
Go ahead if it pleases you, but please spare me another fallacy of yours, that this would somehow kill off mankind - claims you cant back up...

"

Orbaal wrote:

"

EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

You just fell down a long and slippery slope:

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Slippery_slope

*snip*

No I didnt.

I´m working as a dev myself, attending meetings where user feedback is being discussed and I can tell you from my experience, that devs do fear this potential chain reaction. The power of the outrage internet culture is not to be underestimated.

But you are right, I cant possibly back my claims with facts nor do I know GGGs stance on the subject. Which means, Im assuming GGG would react like other dev teams - which might be wrong.

Point is:
I didnt make up a fallacy.
Devs like to be in control of their own projects and thus they cant cave in to please everyone.


I´m fully aware, that you might just call this post another fallacy.
Go ahead if it pleases you, but please spare me another fallacy of yours, that this would somehow kill off mankind - claims you cant back up...

Very similar stuff was asserted by others prior to the 3.0. Along with promises from one poster that he would never donate to GGG again if they caved in to our whining. Did he keep his promise? I don't know and don't really care. Yet, 3.0 provided enough change to the loathsome content that I returned to the game.

It's an unknown percentage of people that consider labyrinth to not be fun content but still a significant amount. The thread that GGG started on the subject makes that pretty clear. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1899252

"

EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

I hear what you're saying and I believe you're asking important questions.

But, I'm not sure the questions you're posing are easy to answer. Also, in the absence of solid reasons to believe that the current paradigm for itemization will change, perhaps it's better to keep SSF as something reserved for those who truly enjoy it for the challenge it provides, rather than as a way to avoid dealing with trading.

Oh, I know these questions are difficult to answer, but that doesn't make them any less relevant. SSF IS BETTER to be KEPT in the current form, as this provided an additional challenge and required a very small amount of work on GGG's side (so a win-win scenario).

If trading is meant to be a "core mechanic", SSF must not interfere with it, but provide an alternative.

But "trade" needs further improvements, and pathofexile/trade is a welcomed change. Hopefully, we need not wait a few more years until they add/rework other aspecsts...

"

Turtledove wrote:

People with the "git gud" message are missing the mark. Labyrinth is loathsome content to run through, not because it is hard but because it is boring and not fun for some.

So is trading, and the entire Act4. So what? People will enjoy different parts of the game. If you make everything non-mandatory, you kind of don't have a game any more I guess...? Though a moddable PoE would be lovely.

Pretty sure that trading for the average player unlocks more power than the lab. Pretty sure it does for me at least. And I find it a lot more annoying than lab, and it has even less to do with killing monsters and getting loot.

Yeah but no matter how hard you "git gud", you can still find something unpleasant, so I'd say that "git gud" misses the mark as its not a viable solution at all.
(Its also not a valid git command.)

"Toughen up" would work.
"Suck it up" works too.
"Git gud" makes no sense in this situation.

"

Char1983 wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

People with the "git gud" message are missing the mark. Labyrinth is loathsome content to run through, not because it is hard but because it is boring and not fun for some.

So is trading, and the entire Act4. So what? People will enjoy different parts of the game. If you make everything non-mandatory, you kind of don't have a game any more I guess...? Though a moddable PoE would be lovely.

Pretty sure that trading for the average player unlocks more power than the lab. Pretty sure it does for me at least. And I find it a lot more annoying than lab, and it has even less to do with killing monsters and getting loot.

This is the Feedback and Suggestions forum. People complained about trading here and GGG has made significant improvements to trading. People complained about labyrinth here and GGG has made significant improvements to labyrinth. People complained about Act 4 here but mostly in labyrinth threads like you do above. Will GGG make improvements to Act 4 because of those kind of Act 4 complaints? We'll see I guess.

I've taken a break from the forums and PoE recently, mainly because of other more fun games WITHOUT Labyrinth-like content (ie: mandatory mini-games) This used to be my "go to game" to play between Invasion League and its introduction. I just don't need that monstrosity in my life. It's not fun. It ruins the rest of the game for me.

I'm mainly a theorycrafter - which this game caters to. You plan builds, find fun interactions between skills, supports, uniques, and then create your character to see if it can tackle the content. Success or failure of a build used to be only determined by your build (my determining factor anyway).

The Labyrinth ignores 90% of most builds (I've gone into this in detail many times in the past), so that it becomes a mini-game of dodging traps instead of testing your build against challenges in the game. All those defenses you rely on against monsters? Doesn't matter. All that damage from your glass cannon build? Can't kill traps. Doesn't matter. When it comes down to it, it's a dodging/jumping game (using movement skills to bypass traps) with one life and no save points. THIS is why it feels so off-putting to many people. Even if it's not challenging, and is boring and they can go through it just fine... it's a different game with different rules than the rest of the game.

This is why it should not be mandatory for a character's build progression. The person's build doesn't matter in there (unless you build specifically FOR the 10% of things the Labyrinth cares about, which can trivialize it, either with massive regen or movement speed - and surely the devs don't want everyone to only be playing builds that have massive regen or massive movement speed, right?)

It does not test a player's build; it tests a player's dodging skills in an isometric mouse-click auto-pathing game. When I finish the Labyrinth, I don't feel a sense of joy that I conquered a challenge. I suffered through a mini-game forced into a character-building ARPG that focuses on loot - that ignored my character's build and loot (except boots and regen).

Sure, you might be able to beat all the content in the game without ascendancy classes, but that doesn't mean that such a character is complete. It's not an optional part of character development, which is a key part of this game's draw (just look at the skilldrasil, as people travel a path in forging their character, and collecting loot to make themselves stronger). So, please don't throw the whole "but it's not mandatory" argument out there. Holds no water in my eyes.

Labyrinth makes a fine mini-game that I wouldn't ask for them to remove, but I would certainly ask for it to be relegated to a side challenge that people can choose to do or not (even keeping Ascendancy points as a reward, while having them rewarded elsewhere as well), to add variety to their gaming experience, or not. Hey, I might even enjoy it, if it wasn't mandatory, and I did it just to change things up, on a character I built for it.


This whole frustration with the jarring disconnect between the rest of the game, and the labyrinth's rules ultimately drives me away from PoE whenever I even begin theorycrafting a new character. It may only be 1% of some player's time in the game, but it's entirely stomach-churning to me (and yes, I can complete it - there's no git gud argument to make against me, sorry).


I agree with the Original Poster.