Tackling the limitations of PoE: Part One - The "Labyrinth"

I'd really like to start by saying that this is an excellent write up and contains a lot of my feelings on the lab, where it's great content that needs a tune up. Also I've been up for 20 hours so if this gets a little incoherent there's that.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Due to several decisions, I'm sorry to say, the "Labyrinth" doesn't feel like an "Labyrinth" and they should change that.

Paths

They should make it have at least 3 correct paths to lead towards the last Aspirant Trial. If the areas have to be reduced in size, they could compensate by increasing their variety, so each path should feel like a different experience. If they also intertwine the paths, it will be even better.

It will certainly improve the "Labyrinthic" feeling and make the content deserving of the name, instead of this shallow linear "get from start to finish in a mostly straight line", that we experience now.

In that case the hidden passages would be used as ingenious ways to advance you on the map and feel like worthy of your time to search them.

This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how good the implementation could be. I'm not sure how well they could implement something where all the choices are similar enough where there's not a "best path" but if they can do that awesome.

"

Traps

Right now, certain areas and trap gauntlets have problems regarding low visibility, and if they want to encourage the tackling of "Labyrinth" even on Hardcore, those issues have to addressed, even if further improvements are placed aside.

We have the problem of the "cheese" by spamming of MS skills/Quicksilver potions that I'm sorry to say, renders a large portion of the trap gauntlets null, so a few improvements could be made in making those trap layouts more complex would equal the scale.

There should be ways of bypassing the traps, and my first proposal in this regard, are master switches. I think that the best way to implement master switches is by having them heavily defended by difficult encounters (multi modded essence monsters come to mind) and making them clear a path through specific trap gauntlets in that area or another linked area.

My other proposal concerns destroyable traps, so that players could make their own path through the trap gauntlets at the cost of time. They could make them specific to certain areas, an entire correct path towards the last Aspirant's Trial and also implement them everywhere if they feel like it.

Gauntlet visibility is definitely lacking and I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing if you increased the visibility of what zones are safe to stand in between traps or made it slightly easier to dance between traps and recover, but it's often hard to tell if some spot are save or not (the spots between the massive blades that fall down or how close you can be to the spike pillars comes to mind)
I don't think traps themselves should be destroyable, but the ability to go out of your way to turn them off does seem like a good idea where you can trade time vs safety.

"

Traps & monsters

I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps, when they could have had them intertwined so you pay attention at the enemies, and the traps in preparation for the epic fight versus Izaro. Not to mention the missed opportunities regarding the tactical advantages that a complex trap gauntlet would give you versus a difficult enemy.

I do understand that they are constraint by the basic AI that the game uses, but there are improvements that could be taken to give a better experience to players even in this regard.

One solution would be to have some of the difficult enemies great to fight in trap gauntlets - Exiles + multi essence mobs, for example - that when taking sustained trap damage they should try and find a spot where they're not going to get damaged by traps, and also keep their focus on getting you killed.

Another would be to also find a way to make traps do percentage damage to monsters (if they don't do so already) so you'll have normal ones surviving 5 hits from a spike trap, magic ones 8 hits, rare/unique ones 10 and adjust those values to seconds for movable traps. If necessary even tune down or up the aggressivity of the monsters that you encounter in the trap areas.

I don't think monsters in the trap gauntlets as they are now is a good idea, but if they redesigned some of the gauntlets it's probably a good idea.

"

Scripted encounters/situations

A few scripted situations will exponentially increase the "Labyrinth" experience, as long as they are in a set amount for one iteration.

They should also be carefully added by the map generation mechanism so you never have more than 3 during one path to final Ascendancy Trial. You don't have to overuse them, but just sprinkle them at times, so you'll "wow" your audience.

One such example would be area where upon passing a door your set in an ad hoc arena with a variety of difficult encounters, different each time.

And another could be an area where after you passed through a long corridor, you have monsters ambush you from behind with an wall closing in on you and threatening to flat you.

They could be just as rare as your chance to meet a "Labyrinth Trial" when running higher tier maps, and once experienced they don't have to pop up for a few map generations at least - you experience the "advancing wall" area, you'll might re-experience it post xx amount of runs/ x amount of days.

I'm not sure here I'll leave it at a strong depends on how it's done, but if we keep the labyrinth as a fixed seed race these shouldn't be random but fixed. Different ones of these that are better/worse for different builds might be good in making people decide between the different paths like you mentioned earlier though.

Ascendancy Points

One of the best way to improve the handling of the Ascendancy points, that are build defining, and "power creep" at it's best, is the fact that they should be given for a substantial effort from the players behalf.

So that means certain series of improvements should be implemented.

First of all, for gaining the Ascendancy points, the "Labyrinth" layout should be completely random generated. No "but" and "no questions asked". Their impact on your character is so defining that "Labyrinth" has to be experienced from start to finish.

[/quote]

I don't like this last one, I think that the decision of whether or not your build can handle a particular lab layout is a good thing to include for ascending.

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I totally accidentally deleted the part about making every fight izaro instead of letting people run it for you.

100% for it I don't like letting people get rushed.


Overall some nice suggestions, and it's great to see a lab thread that isn't just angry and contains 0 information.

I forgot a major gripe!

The mobs spawned in the Izaro battle don't recharge Vaal skills.
I really hope this is just a bug, not deliberate design.
If the Vaal skills are OP, then fix them. Having them not work when you need them the most just means I have wasted gem slots. :/

"

goetzjam wrote:

Spoiler

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Paths

They should make it have at least 3 correct paths to lead towards the last Aspirant Trial. If the areas have to be reduced in size, they could compensate by increasing their variety, so each path should feel like a different experience. If they also intertwine the paths, it will be even better.

It will certainly improve the "Labyrinthic" feeling and make the content deserving of the name, instead of this shallow linear "get from start to finish in a mostly straight line", that we experience now.

In that case the hidden passages would be used as ingenious ways to advance you on the map and feel like worthy of your time to search them.

Lets say there is 3 paths, if you know that you can hang right every single time, then what do the other paths offer you? If the other paths offer you something, then the people that gather this information daily will share and people will know which route to go in terms of best reward anyway. So unless this change is paired with something significant, its just bloating the overall lab and not adding anything but more paths that would mean nothing. Not only that I don't think GGG has enough trap setups to make it so each area is truly unique in the challenge they could provide, but maybe they do.

It doesn't ultimately matter if it feels like a linear run to the end or if it has more of an appearance of being "an actual lab" because you are forgetting a key part of the lab and design, which is the lab is technically broken and the rewards are heavily weighted on the end. Who cares about the journey when the reward is almost all loaded on the backend. Imagine doing a map where you get nothing until you reach the end and then you get all the rewards.

Spoiler

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Right now, certain areas and trap gauntlets have problems regarding low visibility, and if they want to encourage the tackling of "Labyrinth" even on Hardcore, those issues have to addressed, even if further improvements are placed aside.

Its dark in some areas yes, but unless you have terrible graphics capabilities they all appear quite clearly on my screen. I use a GTX 1080 card and my monitor is a benq 120hz 27" screen from a few years back. I know one of the features it has is the black screen thing where it can "brighten up" dark areas, but I haven't adjusted that. In terms of in hardcore, its perfectly playable as is now, the only issues in terms of traps that really needs to be addressed is ensuring the hitboxes co-inside where they should, which people have indicated haven't always been there.

Spoiler

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We have the problem of the "cheese" by spamming of MS skills/Quicksilver potions that I'm sorry to say, renders a large portion of the trap gauntlets null, so a few improvements could be made in making those trap layouts more complex would equal the scale.

This was showcased in the lab preview threads with people using WB or other movement skills to avoid the damage. Its literally called using the resources you have available to you. If you want to patiently run thru them without movement skills or quicksilvers, its possible you just need to understand the pattern.

In terms of making the trap "gauntlets" longer, its not needed, some are rather short and some are longer, but none are as long as the uber trials and that is for good reason. The amount of people that complain about the traps in the lab is already way higher then it should be. The simple fact that people here that dislike the lab even mentioned they support your post is a clear indication they didn't read it, because they are the very people that would complain if the trap gauntlents were longer.

It amazes me and it should be clear to GGG that many of the people that responded to this post did not read it at all.

Spoiler

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There should be ways of bypassing the traps, and my first proposal in this regard, are master switches. I think that the best way to implement master switches is by having them heavily defended by difficult encounters (multi modded essence monsters come to mind) and making them clear a path through specific trap gauntlets in that area or another linked area.

I suppose this is the catch 22, if you make the traps longer, people will want to avoid them and spend more time going out of there way to do so. However, no matter what you implement, if the time to avoid them is anywhere close to the time to run the traps, then you have a vastly upset balance in terms of risk vs reward. The traps should be the quickest way to navigate the lab by a long shot, because its also the most dangerous way.


We had discussed something like this in the past with having 2 different versions of the lab you can activate, one more based on traps like we see now and the other more based on puzzles that would require far more walking and killing of monsters, with traps in there for flavor.

Spoiler

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My other proposal concerns destroyable traps, so that players could make their own path through the trap gauntlets at the cost of time. They could make them specific to certain areas, an entire correct path towards the last Aspirant's Trial and also implement them everywhere if they feel like it.

Its illogical to have all traps be destroyable.

Spoiler

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It was disheartening to have only certain traps "hidden" on a timed basis, instead of properly destroyed, when you have the power to kill every enemy that the game throws against you. That is plain wrong. And we have destroyed traps sprinkled around the derelict "Labyrinth" as a further "slap in our face".

The lab is broken, which is why its partly navigateable and why some traps are destroyed, but that doesn't mean because some are destroyed that all can be destroyed by you. It could be that some traps over time have malfunctioned, are you going to sit here and say "yeah my split arrow can totally destroy that trap" No of course not its not logical.

Spoiler

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To destroy a trap, you should reach a few minimal conditions - a set value of xx hits of xxxK amount of damage - and have those tuned so you'll get diminishing returns for over-damaging them.

And if you don't have a build that hits? Like a degen build or if you don't meet those thresholds.

Again, its simply not logical to implement something like this. The traps have been shown to be achievable, learn to deal with it or don't. But to say you need to be able to destroy them is laughable, at best.

Spoiler

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I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps, when they could have had them intertwined so you pay attention at the enemies, and the traps in preparation for the epic fight versus Izaro. Not to mention the missed opportunities regarding the tactical advantages that a complex trap gauntlet would give you versus a difficult enemy.

Again, people already complain about traps being difficult without the monsters. But you seem to be forgetting a couple of things, builds will want to get in various safe spaces while they progress thru the traps, if there are monsters there, then there isn't anyway to navigate the traps super safe.

Lets also think for a second about the monsters and traps, considering monster die to the traps, what is stopping them from being dead before you even really get close enough to interact with them?

Another reason I can think of has to due with flask charges, they give you places where you can kill monsters to refill flask, but if they had monsters around the traps you would be able to get those on the go as well.

Spoiler

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One solution would be to have some of the difficult enemies great to fight in trap gauntlets - Exiles + multi essence mobs, for example - that when taking sustained trap damage they should try and find a spot where they're not going to get damaged by traps, and also keep their focus on getting you killed.

Which is a cool enough idea for the uber lab, but not for any of the lessor ones IMO.

Spoiler

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First of all, for gaining the Ascendancy points, the "Labyrinth" layout should be completely random generated. No "but" and "no questions asked". Their impact on your character is so defining that "Labyrinth" has to be experienced from start to finish.

When there is a conflicting view of something that is already done in terms of design, the one that GGG implements is the one that will stay. GGG will not randomize the lab, because its counter intuitive to the very design they cameup with. It means that people can't share the information (they wanted content creators to be able to share information). It means they can't run a fair lab race, which means the rewards for those will likely have to be removed. It also means that anyone looking to do with lab will have to do even more research before they could attempt to do it.

All this does is give more fuel to the fire to get the AC points separated from the lab. You want the lab to be some mega hard difficult challenge, while the vast majority of people just want to be able to get their AC points.

Spoiler

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Completing it will give you the right to run the daily layout, used for the "speed run" ladder. This layout could keep it's map generation fixed, as it would provide "enchant" runs also, but with a small further suggestion, the chest dropping max tier crafting bases shouldn't be in the boss chamber but in a harder to reach and heavily protected location, so you should at least work further if you want to "have your cake and eat it too".

So this gives a solution to the race aspect, kinda because even with the set layout we have now traps can vary from 2 different runs. But I do agree high tier crating bases shouldn't be in the chest. It shouldn't be in the lab at all, that should be reserved for high maps only (and applicable divination cards)

Spoiler

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In contrast, for the random layout you should get some bonuses for fully clearing areas and finding hidden stuff.

No one is going to fully clear a lower level zone, like its not going to be worth it. So even implementing a bonus for doing so is a massive waste of resources.

Spoiler

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The most important part would be that the Aspirant Trial fights start after all party members enter the fighting arena so even the carried players at least run for their life if not also fight Izaro.

Lol, I thought it was this way at first. But the safe zone before is necessary part of the lab, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to force anyone into the zone. Plus its not necessary by design. Are you forced into any of the act bosses's zones to get carried thru those? Fuck no.



What you have written up is a massive waste of GGG time and resources. If they want to make small tactical improvement to the lab overtime as the game changes that is one thing. To implement what you have suggested here is simply changing the design of the lab to be something completely different then what they had set out for it to be.

Hello goetzjam.

I'm sorry to see you think that my suggestions are a massive waste of GGG time and resources. Others deem they're worthy - and having the RULER OF WRAECLAST by my side beats having the forum leader, although I would enjoy to have you too. ^^

They might implement a few or even all of them, as they are tactical and strategical improvements to change the "Labyrinth" in a way that will bring the true potential of this content, which I am sorry to say feels the best only lore wise for the moment.

So let me address each part of your comment just as you did.

Paths

People care about diversity (one of the most powerful points of PoE) and they should care about their journey and the way that their in game avatar experience it. Although the "Labyrinth" might be technically broken, it might also lead you to those by having various correct paths.

You already can finish the "Labyrinth" by following a linear path (go "left all the way" as you put it), so my proposal of intertwining up to 3 paths to stop them to feel excessively linear would be a big plus.

And I do remind you that they could do so for the "Labyrinth" where you experience the Ascendancy points run (where the layout will be randomly generated each time).

Visibility of trap gauntlets

There are certain trap gauntlets which due to their length and dark areas are a problem that has to be resolved. They should have better visibility, even if they do so by allowing a special camera mode, just as they already plan to do on "Fall of Oriath" in certain instances.

Not to mention that the issue regarding the trap hitboxes should be addressed ASAP.

PS: I do play PoE on higher than average IPS panels on notebook and PC, and I could always adjust gamma, but it shouldn't be a "mandatory" request to do so.

"Cheesing" traps

I do understand the trap layouts and I do find them boring most of the times. Just maximising your movement speed and running with an "mindless" spam of MS skills feels unrewarding at best, and does nullify the trap gauntlets (especially the shorter ones). That is why I support having movement debuffs on some of them as Fruz suggested.

Having to navigate traps is supposed to improve you skillplay so they should make the traps gauntlets more worthy of that "check". Also having traps feel more dangerous if you do it with attention instead of mindlessly "speed running" should be reversed.

I hope that everyone around here understands that I would enjoy more difficult traps, but by that, their density mustn't always increase, as some combinations could have enough difficulty even in smaller doses.

Master switches

Traps should never be there only for "flavour". And I also feel that those 2 versions of the "Labyrinth" could be combined as I illustrated in a short display of how areas would succeed until you reach your first Aspirant's Trial.

Master switches could be implemented in a slew of ways - making them deactivate a safe path, all traps in same/another area etc. - and having them protected by difficult enemies - think corrupted multi essence mod hard - would certainly make them as deadly as traps at times.

So I think that is one of my best suggestions.

Destroyable traps

There is nothing illogical with having traps destroyable. It's more illogical to have them not.

Even with the "Labyrinth" in a broken state, traps are laying around destroyed, be that due technical failures, them being forcefully hit or by the simple passing of time => so GGG could either give us opportunities to make them forcefully fail (Master Switches for example), hitting them or simply increasing the passing of time for them by making them susceptible to Temporal Chains. ^^

Having thresholds in place for a degen build would not be a problem as they do damage the Sentinels in "Uber Labirinth", and regarding AoE concerns I already stated that the damage should affect only one trap at the time.

Those thresholds that I proposed are for "Uber Labyrinth", and are there to make it a time consuming alternative, so the safe path will always be costly regarding your time, and they could also meet a further criteria - if you're having troubles with them, you'll definitely have a hard time versus Izaro too.

Also, you could have destroyable traps in certain areas as a mini-game, where either "area becomes fatal after some time" so you either forge your path or forgo and explore another way to advance, or even by destroying traps you could increase the danger level versus you character in another way - so next trap gauntlets would do an increased amount of damage, or monsters will be resilient to ailments etc.

It is a solid suggestion which will improve the experience.

Separating traps from monsters

First of all, you don't have to place all monsters in trap gauntlets. So you could have for difficult ones safe spots.

They could also introduce certain monster mods that make them resilient to trap damage, or give a substantial less amount of flask charges - like ghosts that fly and would be highly resistant to spikes and/or have them provide 10th a charge for flasks/kill.

I already further explained the tactical advantage of making monsters follow you in traps versus difficult enemies, the same could be true even against lesser ones as long as they take an optimum amount of trap hits to still pose a threat to you and still be killed with the help of traps.

I think that at least the difficulty of the Exiles that you encounter in the "Labyrinth" could be adjusted for each "Labyrinth" difficulty.

Randomised "Labyrinth" layout

For obtaining the Ascendancy points, the "Labyrinth" layout could be random each time, to give a more "Labyrinthic" feeling and a true purpose as a gear, build and skillplay check.

"Labyrinth" should be as you put it "some mega hard difficult challenge" that has to be fair towards all, and right now, PoE needs a large infusion of such challenges because "power creep at it's best" should always come with a cost.

Making it a randomised layout will feel like an experience tailored to your own character each time, and would make the obtainment of Ascendancy points a highlight worth to remember, when solo or in a party.

Checking Izaro mechanics would be necessary to be further improved upon, as even now, if you don't prepare beforehand, you can't see them before the fight, so I feel that having a further way to explain them in the safe zone before the Aspirant Trial is mandatory - the plaque where you see the layout could also serve for this aspect.

With my proposed changes (that account for those expressed in the further "Difficulty" and "Balance" threads too), people might be more inclined to experience the "Labyrinth" closer to their level, but even so, the only instance where the monsters could be a few levels higher than now is the "Uber Labyrinth" instance.

Regarding the "carry" situation, making mandatory the presence of all party members before the start of each fight should be easy enough - the fight doesn't start if not all are in the same instance - and that change should be made for all the act bosses fights too.

Party playing should be encouraged, but in a right way, to further the skillplay of all, and making gear and build choices matter each time versus a difficult enemy.

As I said before, PoE should change by requesting their players dedication and involvement, and rewarding that with progression.

That's all I have to say on this matter.

"

HousePet wrote:

I forgot a major gripe!

The mobs spawned in the Izaro battle don't recharge Vaal skills.
I really hope this is just a bug, not deliberate design.
If the Vaal skills are OP, then fix them. Having them not work when you need them the most just means I have wasted gem slots. :/

Its not a bug, its a elaborate design decision because vaal skills are commonly used against map bosses as a big finisher style style that does a lot of damage in a short amount of time.

Imagine if vaal skills did work in the lab, you would be able to get enough souls between the phases to completely blow him up so fast that you wouldn't have to interact with the mechanics of the fight.

In regards to linear paths and creating more options, can you see how it might be difficult to have that many options available to players, how it might be even more confusing for players to run then now?

I think making it a bit more random or offering more paths is fine in theory, but then it also would create more pressure on players to learn more about the lab and not just look at a daily thread, which was kind of the purpose of making the information shareable in the first place.

I believe this change will actually lead to more complaints, not less. If your concern is addressing people that are complaining about the lab, I'm not sure this touches, what I like to call vegetarians complaints at all.

"

There are certain trap gauntlets which due to their length and dark areas are a problem that has to be resolved. They should have better visibility, even if they do so by allowing a special camera mode, just as they already plan to do on "Fall of Oriath" in certain instances.

Not to mention that the issue regarding the trap hitboxes should be addressed ASAP.

PS: I do play PoE on higher than average IPS panels on notebook and PC, and I could always adjust gamma, but it shouldn't be a "mandatory" request to do so.

I have yet to see a trap set that was "hard to pass" or impossible for a build to not see a place that is safe, at least at some point.

In terms of special camera mode, its just an adjusted angle from what I understand and its so specific to that arena, I don't think giving more camera options is necessary, because people do the lab all of the time without needing it. Suggesting it is needed is saying people need a crutch IMO.

In terms of gamma, if it was adjusted I didn't do it.

"

I do understand the trap layouts and I do find them boring most of the times. Just maximising your movement speed and running with an "mindless" spam of MS skills feels unrewarding at best, and does nullify the trap gauntlets (especially the shorter ones). That is why I support having movement debuffs on some of them as Fruz suggested.

Having to navigate traps is supposed to improve you skillplay so they should make the traps gauntlets more worthy of that "check". Also having traps feel more dangerous if you do it with attention instead of mindlessly "speed running" should be reversed.

I think its a misconception that people have that doing the traps tactically puts your character at risk. It shouldn't because you should be able to time your movement skills, flask useage, ect all better if you time properly. I will argue that mindlessly running thru removes some aspect of panic, basically until its too late, however there is no way to adjust for the panic factor.

"

Master switches could be implemented in a slew of ways - making them deactivate a safe path, all traps in same/another area etc. - and having them protected by difficult enemies - think corrupted multi essence mod hard - would certainly make them as deadly as traps at times.

So I think that is one of my best suggestions.

Its an idea and one of the ones I have less of an issue with, more of a either its the way to do it or its not the way people will do it. If 10% or less people choose the path of fighting the harder shit, then is it even worth the time and resources to vastly change the lab and the mechanics and understandings around it?

"

There is nothing illogical with having traps destroyable. It's more illogical to have them not.

Disagree 100%. Having all traps be destroyable removes the very purpose of having the traps in the first place. If you can kill the traps from afar you are removing the challenge the game is presenting to you. Not only that, but having destroyable traps favors ranged builds more then melee, again something that shouldn't happen.

"

Even with the "Labyrinth" in a broken state, traps are laying around destroyed, be that due technical failures, them being forcefully hit or by the simple passing of time => so GGG could either give us opportunities to make them forcefully fail (Master Switches for example), hitting them or simply increasing the passing of time for them by making them susceptible to Temporal Chains. ^^

The traps are broken due to the lab being broken, not because some player before you destroyed them.



Also, you could have destroyable traps in certain areas as a mini-game, where either "area becomes fatal after some time" so you either forge your path or forgo and explore another way to advance, or even by destroying traps you could increase the danger level versus you character in another way - so next trap gauntlets would do an increased amount of damage, or monsters will be resilient to ailments etc.

"

It is a solid suggestion which will improve the experience.

It won't improve anything, because it removes the purpose of the traps. Its really as simple as that. It thematically doesn't fit and it doesn't fit design wise.

If you want a master level for an area where you go out of your way and kill a harder mini boss of the area to disable the traps, ok maybe thats fine, but not just regular damage.

"

First of all, you don't have to place all monsters in trap gauntlets. So you could have for difficult ones safe spots.

"safe spots" but according to lab haters there are no safe spots

not that es needs more of an excuse, but having monsters or exiles around traps is dangerous to those sorts of builds because they need a place where they can safely recharge thru the gauntlets.

"

Regarding the "carry" situation, making mandatory the presence of all party members before the start of each fight should be easy enough - the fight doesn't start if not all are in the same instance - and that change should be made for all the act bosses fights too.

So leave the party, start the fight, then rejoin ^_^

"

Party playing should be encouraged, but in a right way, to further the skillplay of all, and making gear and build choices matter each time versus a difficult enemy.

Nothing about this game discourages a player from getting rushed or carried, if any content is in need of this ability, I would say its the content designed around enrage mechanics like izaro....

"

goetzjam wrote:

In regards to linear paths and creating more options, can you see how it might be difficult to have that many options available to players, how it might be even more confusing for players to run then now?

I think making it a bit more random or offering more paths is fine in theory, but then it also would create more pressure on players to learn more about the lab and not just look at a daily thread, which was kind of the purpose of making the information shareable in the first place.

I believe this change will actually lead to more complaints, not less. If your concern is addressing people that are complaining about the lab, I'm not sure this touches, what I like to call vegetarians complaints at all.

Spoiler

"

There are certain trap gauntlets which due to their length and dark areas are a problem that has to be resolved. They should have better visibility, even if they do so by allowing a special camera mode, just as they already plan to do on "Fall of Oriath" in certain instances.

Not to mention that the issue regarding the trap hitboxes should be addressed ASAP.

PS: I do play PoE on higher than average IPS panels on notebook and PC, and I could always adjust gamma, but it shouldn't be a "mandatory" request to do so.

I have yet to see a trap set that was "hard to pass" or impossible for a build to not see a place that is safe, at least at some point.

In terms of special camera mode, its just an adjusted angle from what I understand and its so specific to that arena, I don't think giving more camera options is necessary, because people do the lab all of the time without needing it. Suggesting it is needed is saying people need a crutch IMO.

In terms of gamma, if it was adjusted I didn't do it.

Spoiler

"

I do understand the trap layouts and I do find them boring most of the times. Just maximising your movement speed and running with an "mindless" spam of MS skills feels unrewarding at best, and does nullify the trap gauntlets (especially the shorter ones). That is why I support having movement debuffs on some of them as Fruz suggested.

Having to navigate traps is supposed to improve you skillplay so they should make the traps gauntlets more worthy of that "check". Also having traps feel more dangerous if you do it with attention instead of mindlessly "speed running" should be reversed.

I think its a misconception that people have that doing the traps tactically puts your character at risk. It shouldn't because you should be able to time your movement skills, flask useage, ect all better if you time properly. I will argue that mindlessly running thru removes some aspect of panic, basically until its too late, however there is no way to adjust for the panic factor.

Spoiler

"

Master switches could be implemented in a slew of ways - making them deactivate a safe path, all traps in same/another area etc. - and having them protected by difficult enemies - think corrupted multi essence mod hard - would certainly make them as deadly as traps at times.

So I think that is one of my best suggestions.

Its an idea and one of the ones I have less of an issue with, more of a either its the way to do it or its not the way people will do it. If 10% or less people choose the path of fighting the harder shit, then is it even worth the time and resources to vastly change the lab and the mechanics and understandings around it?

Spoiler

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There is nothing illogical with having traps destroyable. It's more illogical to have them not.

Disagree 100%. Having all traps be destroyable removes the very purpose of having the traps in the first place. If you can kill the traps from afar you are removing the challenge the game is presenting to you. Not only that, but having destroyable traps favors ranged builds more then melee, again something that shouldn't happen.

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Even with the "Labyrinth" in a broken state, traps are laying around destroyed, be that due technical failures, them being forcefully hit or by the simple passing of time => so GGG could either give us opportunities to make them forcefully fail (Master Switches for example), hitting them or simply increasing the passing of time for them by making them susceptible to Temporal Chains. ^^

The traps are broken due to the lab being broken, not because some player before you destroyed them.



Also, you could have destroyable traps in certain areas as a mini-game, where either "area becomes fatal after some time" so you either forge your path or forgo and explore another way to advance, or even by destroying traps you could increase the danger level versus you character in another way - so next trap gauntlets would do an increased amount of damage, or monsters will be resilient to ailments etc.

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It is a solid suggestion which will improve the experience.

It won't improve anything, because it removes the purpose of the traps. Its really as simple as that. It thematically doesn't fit and it doesn't fit design wise.

If you want a master level for an area where you go out of your way and kill a harder mini boss of the area to disable the traps, ok maybe thats fine, but not just regular damage.

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First of all, you don't have to place all monsters in trap gauntlets. So you could have for difficult ones safe spots.

"safe spots" but according to lab haters there are no safe spots

not that es needs more of an excuse, but having monsters or exiles around traps is dangerous to those sorts of builds because they need a place where they can safely recharge thru the gauntlets.

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Regarding the "carry" situation, making mandatory the presence of all party members before the start of each fight should be easy enough - the fight doesn't start if not all are in the same instance - and that change should be made for all the act bosses fights too.

So leave the party, start the fight, then rejoin ^_^

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Party playing should be encouraged, but in a right way, to further the skillplay of all, and making gear and build choices matter each time versus a difficult enemy.

Nothing about this game discourages a player from getting rushed or carried, if any content is in need of this ability, I would say its the content designed around enrage mechanics like izaro....

Hello again,

Thank you for taking further interest and don't mind if I also offer more counterarguments (lots of forum members have a lot to learn about politeness and having a constructive dialogue so this should be a perfect example where ideas could be exemplified and counter-exemplified in a civilised fashion):

I do envision that having multiple correct paths made to converge in the Aspirant Trials (which are always 3 no matter the difficulty of the "Labyrinth") could spice things up regarding the journey and the way you're experiencing of the content. Not all of them have to be made equal, and you shouldn't always have 3 correct paths, you could do with 3 - 1 - 2/1 - 2 -3/2 - 2 - 1 etc. up to even 3 - 3 - 3 scenarios, but their addition will undoubtedly make players invested in exploring the "Labyrinth" and gaining knowledge by doing so.

This system should be set in place in a way that encourages exploring the content for the "ride that matters" aka the Aspirant points random run.

My idea touches the "Labyrinth" being undeserving of it's name. And at least for 4 runs, the "Labyrinth" should mean content that will surprise every player by being a custom made experience for his own journey (and as a bonus, it works for parties too). That would make it memorable and also something a lot more special than now...

Regarding trap gauntlets, I refer to certain situations in "Uber Labyrinth" where on a 2 bad days there were at times really low visibility long (as in way too long even for me) trap gauntlets - and I remind you that I don't usually find them hard, but just boring - yet in those 2 instances something was way off regarding those gauntlets, the safe spots were not visible no matter what.

With trap gauntlets that have a length larger than your screen, it shouldn't be an awful "crutch" to have an different camera angle, so even the subpar players have a chance at finishing successfully the gauntlet.

There is a way to adjust for the panic factor, and that would be by introducing a few fail safes that reduce the mindless "speed cheese" of some trap gauntlets by having traps (existing or new ones) apply further movement debuffs.

Even if 1% of the players think that more diversity regarding ways to disable traps, like using a master switch for example, seems like a good addition, it should be worth the time, due to "Diversity" as a main selling point regarding PoE as an experience - and due to the number of complains, the percentage will be probably a lot higher in the favour of master switches if they're implemented in a way that feels rewarding instead of punishing.

PS: 1% is a large number of the player base, and I would almost bet that it represents a percentage larger than the one of forum members that made statements for or against the "Labyrinth" as it is for now...

Well, regarding having all traps destroyable you might be right, but I also feel that they wouldn't be more discerning regarding range versus melee just as they shouldn't feel that they favour AoE instead of single targeting...

Also allow me to disagree with you further regarding having traps destroyed by having "Labyrinth" in a broken state. Although the lore do implies that the "Labyrinth" is broken by the passing of time, there is no definitive stance regarding why certain traps are broken and most are still functional. Until I see GGG sanction that this is also their vision and it wouldn't change, my explanations work also.

Regarding other ways to disable traps like mine or yours proposals, lets leave GGG to decide on the best implementation - if it was up to me, I would actually implement both ideas - as we already provided them great suggestions either way.

Let's remain on point here, I don't mind "Labyrinth" haters - although I try to understand their point of view too, and that also means that I'm not satisfied with the current iteration of the "Labyrinth" - so you shouldn't either, and keep the discussion centered on real aspects => yes, I feel there are safe spots even in difficult trap gauntlets, it might be that they are harder to see than usual, or plagued by trap hitbox problems, but they are there.

And you could use intricate trap layouts to dispose easier of difficult foes, not suppose that all of the difficult foes will automatically spawn in them, so even ES recharge could remain a worthy possibility.

Regarding parties, leaving a party and trying to rejoin after a fight has started should not be possible due to having a different instance that was activated by starting the fight...

Well, from the EXP point of view, you're already discouraged to rush or carry a player at a more than 10 levels difference so why not extend the same discouragement towards the way that things work at the moment?

All content should be and feel more "fun" in parties, but to make everybody's experience worthwhile, why not encourage parties where level differences are smaller and also by doing that you'll further encourage party play?

Izaro or any enemy with enrage mechanics is easier to tackle in a party where everyone does something to vanquish their opponent, and working in tandem to reach common goals should be the coronation of the teamwork that supossedly is at the moment.

And "Balance" or "Difficulty" problems should be addressed too, if the "Labyrinth" experience is aiming to reach it's full potential.

PS: The part 3 of my series of threads, the one that will address the "Balance" problems will only be finished sometime during the weekend so I apologise for further referring to it as completed and posted already.

Double post.

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鬼殺し wrote:

Regarding DESTRUCTIBLE traps:

Not all should be. I think a system not unlike the trinket/forgotten reliquaries would be better. That's much closer to 'masterswitch' but less potent. As a basic example, say you find (after some searching and killing, etc) something you could stick in the gears of a trap. It'd function like a timed switch, essentially.

I think destroying those spinning blade machines is logical. They're surely no more durable than an ancient Vaal mechanical monster or a wannabe God. Spikes that pop out of the ground? Less logical. Fiery grids? Virtually impossible to 'destroy'.

So what we'd want, essentially, is a hierarchy of traps -- with the weaker ones being destructible, and the room-style ones, like the superheated floor grids, utterly impervious but with more options for disabling if the aspirant is willing to go out of their way to do so.

I would also recommend GGG shake up the guillotine style traps. They're way too easy right now. Mix up their patterns a bit.

I REALLY dislike the 'new' trap where you have to stand inside the trigger's radius as it moves slowly along a track. The concept is cool but since the game then throws endless mobs at you, it just promotes more aoe/spam build style. It's not clever; it doesn't reward tactical play. I knew we're getting them in core 3.0 as well, so I'm probably shoveling shit uphill with my gripes here.

Great remarks, and I am fully supporting the idea of having a hierarchy of the destructibility of traps.

Regarding the "moving trigger trap", if it would have at least more interaction with other traps and/or an increasing difficulty + a decreasing number of foes it might be more worthy than now. As it is, it does feel too lacklustre.

I feel great when discussions lead to further improvements of ideas. As should all of the forum members feel too. ^^

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goetzjam wrote:

Imagine if vaal skills did work in the lab, you would be able to get enough souls between the phases to completely blow him up so fast that you wouldn't have to interact with the mechanics of the fight.

It wouldn't happen like that as you change areas to get to the Izaro fight, so you would be starting with no souls and have to wait for the Goddess to summon skellies first.

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鬼殺し wrote:

It's deliberate design. Works that way for all boss adds.

I have noticed it sucks on all bosses.
I can understand it not being desirable to people to pop a boss as soon as they encounter it (is that even a thing? I don't recall them being that powerful against a single target anyway), but this is stopping you from using them in long boss battles.

Okay, I didn't think of Vaal Molten shell. :P

I certainly hope that Vaal skills are getting a big going over.