Tackling the limitations of PoE: Part One - The "Labyrinth"

Mostly good suggestions. Could make me hate Lab less.
Opening up different approaches to completing it seems especially promising.

That said, these suggestions alone would not make me enter Lab again.

traps + mobs

wont happen. this requires A LOT of scripting for a very nonsignificant part of the game. i do not think you understand just how enourmous task it is to create a semi decent AI

and to have traps intermingled with mobs you need a lot more than that.

and - offscreening exists so why bother at all. my reaction to mobs with traps (as a semi skilled lab runner) would be two fold:


quartz flask and run pastthe mobs and tackle the traps the normal way
OR
offscreen the mobs and then proceed as usual

current design where mobs are separared (aka 'clean') at least is honest in what it is. traps or mobs (there are some mobs+traps tho: darts in 'domain' zones have mobs somewhere and butning floor sections)


im all in for making the lab a true lab. but it wont appease some people thay just hate it because they were slapped once or thrice and felt offended


i think that one part is missing from the picture. enchants. these damn enchants. their relative power disparity +3 chains on arc vs 10% somethin irrelevant on melee skills) and rarity.

in current POE people enchant ES gear and maybe 2 or 3 helmets that are popular.

game funnels players into meta builds and gear choices necause getting needed/desired enchant alone is rather unlikely. meta does not need further incentives

ever tried to get a life based helmet with stuff like melee oriented enchant? forget about it already. for every one such itrm.there are 200 hubris circlets.

enchants should be gear separated. currsnt system is terribad. with lab being made non speedfarmable the source of enchants will dry..

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sidtherat wrote:

traps + mobs

wont happen. this requires A LOT of scripting for a very nonsignificant part of the game. i do not think you understand just how enourmous task it is to create a semi decent AI

and to have traps intermingled with mobs you need a lot more than that.

and - offscreening exists so why bother at all. my reaction to mobs with traps (as a semi skilled lab runner) would be two fold:


quartz flask and run pastthe mobs and tackle the traps the normal way
OR
offscreen the mobs and then proceed as usual

current design where mobs are separared (aka 'clean') at least is honest in what it is. traps or mobs (there are some mobs+traps tho: darts in 'domain' zones have mobs somewhere and butning floor sections)


im all in for making the lab a true lab. but it wont appease some people thay just hate it because they were slapped once or thrice and felt offended


i think that one part is missing from the picture. enchants. these damn enchants. their relative power disparity +3 chains on arc vs 10% somethin irrelevant on melee skills) and rarity.

in current POE people enchant ES gear and maybe 2 or 3 helmets that are popular.

game funnels players into meta builds and gear choices necause getting needed/desired enchant alone is rather unlikely. meta does not need further incentives

ever tried to get a life based helmet with stuff like melee oriented enchant? forget about it already. for every one such itrm.there are 200 hubris circlets.

enchants should be gear separated. currsnt system is terribad. with lab being made non speedfarmable the source of enchants will dry..

Some further improvements in how traps damage monsters and/or a boost to the AI of Exiles + multi mod essence regarding traps shouldn't be such an impossible endeavour.

Not to mention the fact that they could make us use traps to try and kill certain monsters by luring them after us in a trap gauntlet.

Traps already coexist with monsters in certain cases, so the only thing that GGG will have to do is to see how they could make it more interesting and challenging.

The offscreen concerns will be addressed in the "Balance" thread that will follow.

"Labyrinth" should feel as a true "Labyrinth" at least 4 times, when you Ascend. For all the rest you could keep a daily layout so the enchants would be safe in that regard.

If they would like to give a way to further limit the pool at an successful enchant, like taking into account the socketed gems and their Str/Dex/Int alignment, but still in a limited amount so the complete RNG factor stays (so after a set amount of runs you will get an enchant for one of the equipped skills).

My biggest gripe with the Labyrinth is that I don't get to be an Emperor after beating it. Such a rip off!

I personally quite like the flavour and challenge of it. (Especially the music theme.) However I can see why it would upset people. Having to restart the whole thing due to a death or a disconnect is like being kicked in the balls.

My other gripes:
Izaro can be much harder than the rest of the mobs there (Which is an issue throughout Wraeclast really).

No explanation of what is going on during the Izaro battles, other than the tooltip (which assumes you have time to hover your pointer (you don't, you can't stand still)).
Similarly no warning that the extra things will be added to the next battle if you don't have them disabled when Izaro leaves. (And I always misjudge when that is going to happen. XD )

Usually no actual spread of pathways before being bottlenecked into the Izaro battle.

Trap density in the final battle is a bit overkill.

Suggestions: Since I don't know how things will work with the removal of difficulty levels, these may be a bit impractical.
Extra caveat: I've not qualified for the Uber Labyrinth at all so far, so my suggestions do not specifically apply to it.

Firstly, half the total length of the Labyrinth and only have 1 Izaro battle.
He can call in a second mechanic half way through if you want to keep that in the non endgame version.
This is to make it more forgiving for people with dodgy connections or suffer from sudden death syndrome.
It also means you have more space for tangled pathways...

Do not give out the enchantment bonus on the first completion of the Labyrinth. Have Izaro offer the winner the opportunity of more power, but then they have to do another harder labyrinth to get the enchantments. This decouples the Ascendency points from the Enchantments. Which is good as the Ascendency points are critical, whereas the enchantments are an extra optional bonus.

Definitely implement a trap master switch. More reasons for exploring the Labyrinth is good.

Assuming you do keep the Labyrinth as the only source of Ascendency points, perhaps make the Aspirants Plaza a hub with Izaro offering power for progressively more challenging Labyrinths. (and apologising for the lack of Empire as a reward.)


As an aside, should Izaro say the line about the weary traveller when you reach the first Aspirants Trial? Wouldn't that make more sense for the last one?

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sofocle10000 wrote:

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Traps & monsters

I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps, when they could have had them intertwined so you pay attention at the enemies, and the traps in preparation for the epic fight versus Izaro. Not to mention the missed opportunities regarding the tactical advantages that a complex trap gauntlet would give you versus a difficult enemy.

I do understand that they are constraint by the basic AI that the game uses, but there are improvements that could be taken to give a better experience to players even in this regard.

One solution would be to have some of the difficult enemies great to fight in trap gauntlets - Exiles + multi essence mobs, for example - that when taking sustained trap damage they should try and find a spot where they're not going to get damaged by traps, and also keep their focus on getting you killed.

Another would be to also find a way to make traps do percentage damage to monsters (if they don't do so already) so you'll have normal ones surviving 5 hits from a spike trap, magic ones 8 hits, rare/unique ones 10 and adjust those values to seconds for movable traps. If necessary even tune down or up the aggressivity of the monsters that you encounter in the trap areas.
...

There are multiple good ideas in the OP. Focusing on this section, I think it would be great to keep the players main focus on "kill monsters get loot". This is an ARPG after all. The above Traps & monsters suggestion might be the best way to do that. In addition to the above, perhaps a labyrinth monster like a ghost or something that doesn't take trap damage? If you just run past it, it could still follow you through the traps. This would hopefully force some different strategies and tactical thinking while helping to keep the focus on "kill monsters get loot". Another idea might be the labyrinth monsters randomly popping out of the floor or somewhere if the character stands around too long?

The OP deserves credit for a thoughtfully worked out way to try to salvage a particularly badly designed part of POE.

Unfortunately, standing there bashing away at traps for an extended period of time sounds almost as boring and annoying as running them. Also, at the end of the day, labyrinths are boring and annoying.

I'd favor a fight-heavy alternative to labyrinth over destructible (or indestructable) traps set up in a labyrinth, for Ascendancy.

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Paths

They should make it have at least 3 correct paths to lead towards the last Aspirant Trial. If the areas have to be reduced in size, they could compensate by increasing their variety, so each path should feel like a different experience. If they also intertwine the paths, it will be even better.

It will certainly improve the "Labyrinthic" feeling and make the content deserving of the name, instead of this shallow linear "get from start to finish in a mostly straight line", that we experience now.

In that case the hidden passages would be used as ingenious ways to advance you on the map and feel like worthy of your time to search them.

Lets say there is 3 paths, if you know that you can hang right every single time, then what do the other paths offer you? If the other paths offer you something, then the people that gather this information daily will share and people will know which route to go in terms of best reward anyway. So unless this change is paired with something significant, its just bloating the overall lab and not adding anything but more paths that would mean nothing. Not only that I don't think GGG has enough trap setups to make it so each area is truly unique in the challenge they could provide, but maybe they do.

It doesn't ultimately matter if it feels like a linear run to the end or if it has more of an appearance of being "an actual lab" because you are forgetting a key part of the lab and design, which is the lab is technically broken and the rewards are heavily weighted on the end. Who cares about the journey when the reward is almost all loaded on the backend. Imagine doing a map where you get nothing until you reach the end and then you get all the rewards.

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Right now, certain areas and trap gauntlets have problems regarding low visibility, and if they want to encourage the tackling of "Labyrinth" even on Hardcore, those issues have to addressed, even if further improvements are placed aside.

Its dark in some areas yes, but unless you have terrible graphics capabilities they all appear quite clearly on my screen. I use a GTX 1080 card and my monitor is a benq 120hz 27" screen from a few years back. I know one of the features it has is the black screen thing where it can "brighten up" dark areas, but I haven't adjusted that. In terms of in hardcore, its perfectly playable as is now, the only issues in terms of traps that really needs to be addressed is ensuring the hitboxes co-inside where they should, which people have indicated haven't always been there.

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We have the problem of the "cheese" by spamming of MS skills/Quicksilver potions that I'm sorry to say, renders a large portion of the trap gauntlets null, so a few improvements could be made in making those trap layouts more complex would equal the scale.

This was showcased in the lab preview threads with people using WB or other movement skills to avoid the damage. Its literally called using the resources you have available to you. If you want to patiently run thru them without movement skills or quicksilvers, its possible you just need to understand the pattern.

In terms of making the trap "gauntlets" longer, its not needed, some are rather short and some are longer, but none are as long as the uber trials and that is for good reason. The amount of people that complain about the traps in the lab is already way higher then it should be. The simple fact that people here that dislike the lab even mentioned they support your post is a clear indication they didn't read it, because they are the very people that would complain if the trap gauntlents were longer.

It amazes me and it should be clear to GGG that many of the people that responded to this post did not read it at all.

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There should be ways of bypassing the traps, and my first proposal in this regard, are master switches. I think that the best way to implement master switches is by having them heavily defended by difficult encounters (multi modded essence monsters come to mind) and making them clear a path through specific trap gauntlets in that area or another linked area.

I suppose this is the catch 22, if you make the traps longer, people will want to avoid them and spend more time going out of there way to do so. However, no matter what you implement, if the time to avoid them is anywhere close to the time to run the traps, then you have a vastly upset balance in terms of risk vs reward. The traps should be the quickest way to navigate the lab by a long shot, because its also the most dangerous way.


We had discussed something like this in the past with having 2 different versions of the lab you can activate, one more based on traps like we see now and the other more based on puzzles that would require far more walking and killing of monsters, with traps in there for flavor.

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My other proposal concerns destroyable traps, so that players could make their own path through the trap gauntlets at the cost of time. They could make them specific to certain areas, an entire correct path towards the last Aspirant's Trial and also implement them everywhere if they feel like it.

Its illogical to have all traps be destroyable.

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It was disheartening to have only certain traps "hidden" on a timed basis, instead of properly destroyed, when you have the power to kill every enemy that the game throws against you. That is plain wrong. And we have destroyed traps sprinkled around the derelict "Labyrinth" as a further "slap in our face".

The lab is broken, which is why its partly navigateable and why some traps are destroyed, but that doesn't mean because some are destroyed that all can be destroyed by you. It could be that some traps over time have malfunctioned, are you going to sit here and say "yeah my split arrow can totally destroy that trap" No of course not its not logical.

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To destroy a trap, you should reach a few minimal conditions - a set value of xx hits of xxxK amount of damage - and have those tuned so you'll get diminishing returns for over-damaging them.

And if you don't have a build that hits? Like a degen build or if you don't meet those thresholds.

Again, its simply not logical to implement something like this. The traps have been shown to be achievable, learn to deal with it or don't. But to say you need to be able to destroy them is laughable, at best.

"

I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps, when they could have had them intertwined so you pay attention at the enemies, and the traps in preparation for the epic fight versus Izaro. Not to mention the missed opportunities regarding the tactical advantages that a complex trap gauntlet would give you versus a difficult enemy.

Again, people already complain about traps being difficult without the monsters. But you seem to be forgetting a couple of things, builds will want to get in various safe spaces while they progress thru the traps, if there are monsters there, then there isn't anyway to navigate the traps super safe.

Lets also think for a second about the monsters and traps, considering monster die to the traps, what is stopping them from being dead before you even really get close enough to interact with them?

Another reason I can think of has to due with flask charges, they give you places where you can kill monsters to refill flask, but if they had monsters around the traps you would be able to get those on the go as well.

"

One solution would be to have some of the difficult enemies great to fight in trap gauntlets - Exiles + multi essence mobs, for example - that when taking sustained trap damage they should try and find a spot where they're not going to get damaged by traps, and also keep their focus on getting you killed.

Which is a cool enough idea for the uber lab, but not for any of the lessor ones IMO.

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First of all, for gaining the Ascendancy points, the "Labyrinth" layout should be completely random generated. No "but" and "no questions asked". Their impact on your character is so defining that "Labyrinth" has to be experienced from start to finish.

When there is a conflicting view of something that is already done in terms of design, the one that GGG implements is the one that will stay. GGG will not randomize the lab, because its counter intuitive to the very design they cameup with. It means that people can't share the information (they wanted content creators to be able to share information). It means they can't run a fair lab race, which means the rewards for those will likely have to be removed. It also means that anyone looking to do with lab will have to do even more research before they could attempt to do it.

All this does is give more fuel to the fire to get the AC points separated from the lab. You want the lab to be some mega hard difficult challenge, while the vast majority of people just want to be able to get their AC points.

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Completing it will give you the right to run the daily layout, used for the "speed run" ladder. This layout could keep it's map generation fixed, as it would provide "enchant" runs also, but with a small further suggestion, the chest dropping max tier crafting bases shouldn't be in the boss chamber but in a harder to reach and heavily protected location, so you should at least work further if you want to "have your cake and eat it too".

So this gives a solution to the race aspect, kinda because even with the set layout we have now traps can vary from 2 different runs. But I do agree high tier crating bases shouldn't be in the chest. It shouldn't be in the lab at all, that should be reserved for high maps only (and applicable divination cards)

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In contrast, for the random layout you should get some bonuses for fully clearing areas and finding hidden stuff.

No one is going to fully clear a lower level zone, like its not going to be worth it. So even implementing a bonus for doing so is a massive waste of resources.

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The most important part would be that the Aspirant Trial fights start after all party members enter the fighting arena so even the carried players at least run for their life if not also fight Izaro.

Lol, I thought it was this way at first. But the safe zone before is necessary part of the lab, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to force anyone into the zone. Plus its not necessary by design. Are you forced into any of the act bosses's zones to get carried thru those? Fuck no.



What you have written up is a massive waste of GGG time and resources. If they want to make small tactical improvement to the lab overtime as the game changes that is one thing. To implement what you have suggested here is simply changing the design of the lab to be something completely different then what they had set out for it to be.

Should I just post on every thread I think you might post in and say "here comes the useless 1 line post that add nothing to the discussion"

Just so I can say "as predicted down the road"


How about you actually read thru his ideas 1 by one and respond similar to what I did, or do it to mine. Instead you post low effort shit that should simply be removed, why GGG and the support staff that reads this shit allow it to happen time after time is beyond all reason.

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sidtherat wrote:

traps + mobs

wont happen. this requires A LOT of scripting for a very nonsignificant part of the game. i do not think you understand just how enourmous task it is to create a semi decent AI

and to have traps intermingled with mobs you need a lot more than that.

and - offscreening exists so why bother at all. my reaction to mobs with traps (as a semi skilled lab runner) would be two fold:

Of course it is a lot of work, but that is how you make something memorable. You put in the effort, as it stands now.. its boring. As long as movement skills and flasks function the way they do, its just way too easy. And the speed run reward jewel system + long grind for enchants don't entice people to keep coming back.

You could have rooms like Izaro where you zone into and can't leave. That way you can't off screen, your stuck inside the encounter. Your ability to deal with the monster threat while also dealing with an array of traps is what propels you forward. Izaro is the only fun part about the lab. I wish there where more encounters like that around the lab.