I really hate lab

"

Turtledove wrote:

edit: if GGG wanted the layout known ahead of time (for some reason??) then they should make it part of the game not a separate website.

Yeah, because engaging players to create and use content is bad for the game. That's why they don't give 3rd parties any data to create character builder programs or make searchable lists of items in public stash tabs.

If they didn't want the layout known (for some reason??), they would have a randomized layout. Maybe they thought having fixed layouts would make it easier for the whiners to get through. Little did they know that the whiners won't be satisfied unless an NPC handed out ascendency points for alc shards.

You say you would accept an alternative but hard way to get the points, but I can't imagine you wouldn't complain if they were gated behind the likes of a shaper type fight. You'd want an alternative to the alternative to get the points.

"

mark1030 wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

edit: if GGG wanted the layout known ahead of time (for some reason??) then they should make it part of the game not a separate website.

Yeah, because engaging players to create and use content is bad for the game. That's why they don't give 3rd parties any data to create character builder programs or make searchable lists of items in public stash tabs.

If they didn't want the layout known (for some reason??), they would have a randomized layout. Maybe they thought having fixed layouts would make it easier for the whiners to get through. Little did they know that the whiners won't be satisfied unless an NPC handed out ascendency points for alc shards.

You say you would accept an alternative but hard way to get the points, but I can't imagine you wouldn't complain if they were gated behind the likes of a shaper type fight. You'd want an alternative to the alternative to get the points.

It seems obvious that they made a fixed layout for people that wanted to farm the labyrinth and race for the lab ladder. The offsite publishing seemed to work very poorly from my experience. It seemed that every time I wanted to run labyrinth the daily maps were not available. It seemed that the normal ladder was almost never available. If for example someone at GGG was made responsible for providing such a map then it would be fine.

Basing the points on a tough boss fight would be far superior in my opinion. It might cause more complaints than current lab complaints I don't know but from my perspective tough boss fights are fun and fit extremely well with the "kill monster get loot" style game play.

I agree that a GGG provided character build program and trade site would be an improvement. Although I consider that a tangential issue from resources needed for playing through game content.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

If the only challenge in this game resides in navigating low visibility trap gauntlets we're better off giving all monsters 1 HP and make sure they all one shot us too (so 1 HP for us also) => it's only "kill or be killed".

No we're not, it's completely irrelevant and fallacious.
If you don't understand how traps require good player control, there is nothing to discuss about traps with you.
I agree that some gauntlet have too low visibility ( and that having uber traps even reducing that visibility is retarded ), but that is not the point at all here.

And uber lab's traps are timed, and often give you a choice : do you want to take a risk of staying in that trap gauntlet longer and destroy it to make you safer ( at the expense of putting you in danger on that particular moment ), or do you want to ignore it ?
Not all of them, but some definitely do.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Traps should have never ever felt more dangerous than monsters in an ACTION RPG, except when using them to have untankable damage.

First : you should stop about such silly fallacious statements as "Duh it should NEVER EVER be like that !"
You don't get to decide what should and should not be in the game, it being an action RPG or not does not matter here".

And second : Izaro is much more dangerous than traps unless you have a godlike character and/or a cheezy meta b*tch.


And yes, Izaro is judging the player lore wise, and it is a trial, and even though I am pointing at the obvious one more time : if it was that trivial and not pulling people outside of their comfort zone, people would not complain about it, whatever excuse they will try to throw here.

"

mark1030 wrote:

You say you would accept an alternative but hard way to get the points, but I can't imagine you wouldn't complain if they were gated behind the likes of a shaper type fight. You'd want an alternative to the alternative to get the points.

^

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Fruz wrote:

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

If the only challenge in this game resides in navigating low visibility trap gauntlets we're better off giving all monsters 1 HP and make sure they all one shot us too (so 1 HP for us also) => it's only "kill or be killed".

No we're not, it's completely irrelevant and fallacious.
If you don't understand how traps require good player control, there is nothing to discuss about traps with you.
I agree that some gauntlet have too low visibility ( and that having uber traps even reducing that visibility is retarded ), but that is not the point at all here.

And uber lab's traps are timed, and often give you a choice : do you want to take a risk of staying in that trap gauntlet longer and destroy it to make you safer ( at the expense of putting you in danger on that particular moment ), or do you want to ignore it ?
Not all of them, but some definitely do.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Traps should have never ever felt more dangerous than monsters in an ACTION RPG, except when using them to have untankable damage.

First : you should stop about such silly fallacious statements as "Duh it should NEVER EVER be like that !"
You don't get to decide what should and should not be in the game, it being an action RPG or not does not matter here".

And second : Izaro is much more dangerous than traps unless you have a godlike character and/or a cheezy meta b*tch.


And yes, Izaro is judging the player lore wise, and it is a trial, and even though I am pointing at the obvious one more time : if it was that trivial and not pulling people outside of their comfort zone, people would not complain about it, whatever excuse they will try to throw here.

"

mark1030 wrote:

You say you would accept an alternative but hard way to get the points, but I can't imagine you wouldn't complain if they were gated behind the likes of a shaper type fight. You'd want an alternative to the alternative to get the points.

^

Traps require good player control until they can be bypassed or "cheesed" if you would like by using MS skills and Quicksilvers as a go to solution. You can't have it both ways. Either they are intricate enough to slow players down and test their skillplay, either their utility pales if they get bypasses by just stacking MS to the max and just rely on MS skills.

So I still don't see what do you find so great about trap gauntlets that don't do their job. Their skill requirement makes destroyable traps an option, and in my opinion a good one.

There is no fallacy about my statement regarding traps and their damage. A true test of control will penalise heavily the player (up to hardcore levels where you @#^& up once and you're dead), but right now traps are set to do just about enough damage to be dangerous - at times, due to low visibility even more dangerous than monsters, that can always be killed - and their only problem is the current bypass go to mechanic.

I'm not the best at having great control over my character in trap gauntlets, but if I actively try to do so at my own pace, sometimes I have more chances to get killed playing slow instead of speed running it at crazy speed levels.

You're right about Izaro "judging" you lore wise, but it's not a trial until even the people carried have to face Izaro in the Aspirant arena and at leas run for their lives, because pay attention, they do NAVIGATE the traps by their own even when carried => they do are capable of trap gauntlet passing, but Izaro is the break it or make it point.

Oh, and why not having a Shaper type fight where Izaro "judges" you in an arena for the points?

It will stay so much closer to the "old way" to obtain bonuses and progress so you might be impressed that there will not be anymore complains, as that provides diversity => you're ready to go vs Izaro/Uber Izaro at the Shaper level fight difficulty or you're doing it the "easy" way by running the "Labyrinth" where you tackle a version where you choose the difficulty by completing the sequence and keeping him manageable.

Of course the Shaper level fight forgoes the enchantment and just gives you access to the Ascendancy points.

PS: I would still prefer "Labyrinth" and the current iteration to be improved to make players experience some of the best designed content that the game has to offer.

Even if you speedrun through the traps, you need to know what you are doing, otherwise there is a chance that you will screw up and rip.
Always.
Stop pretending like it's nothing, it's as if you've not actually done the lab, or not more than once ot twice to just get the poins and then pretend that you know it well.

That makes "destructible traps" only a very silly and unthought idea, if there is no risk, there is no point.


They do their job, people bitching about it that much here is one of the biggest proof that you could find, not seeing it is very naïve at best, hypocritical at worst.
That said, I would like to see some regen reductions on some traps, or something to reduce the "cheezing potential".

And some gauntlet can be opened by others by the way, and I was obviously not talking about carries, I would like to see such possibitilies gone ( but not to fall into the stupid and unthought "solo-only" idea that I have seen many times in this forum ).

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Oh, and why not having a Shaper type fight where Izaro "judges" you in an arena for the points?

It will stay so much closer to the "old way" to obtain bonuses and progress so you might be impressed that there will not be anymore complains, as that provides diversity => you're ready to go vs Izaro/Uber Izaro at the Shaper level fight difficulty or you're doing it the "easy" way by running the "Labyrinth" where you tackle a version where you choose the difficulty by completing the sequence and keeping him manageable.

There is no just "shaper type fight".
The gating is one of the particularity of the shaper, shaper itself isn't the problem, accessing t16 and defeating the guardian, then fighting shaper is a thing as a whole.
People would still complain.



There is no "old way".
Traps are a thing that has been in other games ( including somes of the same type from what I've read/seen ), and ascendancy points are a relatively new thing.
There is nothing about an "old way" about them.
But anyway, it does not matter, it has absolutely no relevance, it's completely pointless to try to dream about "the old way" ( especially when it's not true ), what matters is what there is now.

"

Fruz wrote:

Even if you speedrun through the traps, you need to know what you are doing, otherwise there is a chance that you will screw up and rip.
Always.
Stop pretending like it's nothing, it's as if you've not actually done the lab, or not more than once ot twice to just get the poins and then pretend that you know it well.

That makes "destructible traps" only a very silly and unthought idea, if there is no risk, there is no point.


They do their job, people bitching about it that much here is one of the biggest proof that you could find, not seeing it is very naïve at best, hypocritical at worst.
That said, I would like to see some regen reductions on some traps, or something to reduce the "cheezing potential".

And some gauntlet can be opened by others by the way, and I was obviously not talking about carries, I would like to see such possibitilies gone ( but not to fall into the stupid and unthought "solo-only" idea that I have seen many times in this forum ).

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Oh, and why not having a Shaper type fight where Izaro "judges" you in an arena for the points?

It will stay so much closer to the "old way" to obtain bonuses and progress so you might be impressed that there will not be anymore complains, as that provides diversity => you're ready to go vs Izaro/Uber Izaro at the Shaper level fight difficulty or you're doing it the "easy" way by running the "Labyrinth" where you tackle a version where you choose the difficulty by completing the sequence and keeping him manageable.

There is no just "shaper type fight".
The gating is one of the particularity of the shaper, shaper itself isn't the problem, accessing t16 and defeating the guardian, then fighting shaper is a thing as a whole.
People would still complain.



There is no "old way".
Traps are a thing that has been in other games ( including somes of the same type from what I've read/seen ), and ascendancy points are a relatively new thing.
There is nothing about an "old way" about them.
But anyway, it does not matter, it has absolutely no relevance, it's completely pointless to try to dream about "the old way" ( especially when it's not true ), what matters is what there is now.

First of all it took me 1 try per my first ascended 2 characters (random disconnects I don't count) to get all of my 8 Ascendancy points, and Izaro was the thing that was the impediment and served as a wall - gear check, build check and skillplay check.

Second I wanted to see how carry experience went, and my other 2 characters were Ascended with "help" regarding navigating through trap gauntlets. It took me 1 try for my Champion and about 4/5 for my last Juggernaut due to me being stubborn and wanting to finish a bad layout + bad visibility. Both of my characters could have dealt with Izaro on their own, by the way, as I tried Uber Lab post Ascended with each.

I might not be the best example, but the trap gauntlets were as trivial as Izaro fights were from my humble point of view, the only difference was that navigating them felt more boring than fighting enemies.

It would be great if gauntlets would require more work in tandem when in a party so you all learn to interact better.

There is an "old way" and that simply implies killing stuff. With very high difficulty fights you always but always had the power to go and vanquish your enemy in the end. Indestructible traps are not.

Ascendancy points aren't a new thing, they are just a further customisation option for your character gated by trap navigation and a difficult sequence of fights.

So you think that having 3 guardians that you have to vanquish before vanquishing Izaro in a 3 sequence fight that encompasses all the Aspirant's Trial fights wouldn't resemble the "old way" where killing stuff gets you to your goal?

They could do that as a side way to reach Ascendancy although I would prefer the journey through the "Labyrinth" as being mandatory with a few improvements that I suggested in my own thread.

It's easier on a juggernaut, but even though, it's not because you managed to do it on the first try that it's trivial.
If you take some time to think and carefuly go through the gauntlets without panicking, it is not that difficult.
But not everybody approaches like this, and with PoE becoming more mindles @IBlowEverythingUpWithOneButton, I can understand that many are not used to it.


Gaunglet that require actual cooperation in a part would be great, I agree with that.


And no, traps are nothing new as I said earlier with more context, and ascendancy points are something new in PoE, there is no "old way" that needs to be tight to them or anything.
Ascendany point are a new thing in PoE, they are the first ever class-based passives, and some of them are like the most powerful things that you can find, basically. Some even allow you to "teleport" to another place on the passive tree.


Having guardian could be a thing, but GGG won't throw all of the lab to create more content to replace it ( even partly, if it's significant, and an "alternative" ascending way would be exactly that ), so it won't be.
And there is no need anyway.

There is no "old way".
There is PoE, and what GGG does with it, and wants to do with it, that's all there is, period.

No need to make the game less interesting ( by removing interesting elements ) because some people can't be bothered to adapt.
Because yes, most of the complaints in this section are a "I don't like it because it takes me outside of my comfort zone and this is unaceptable ! Remove this GGG [insert random insult and raging words]".

Hi,

I have often died in labyrinth(HC) when I am started play this game, but it was a challenge for me.

Currently in my subjective opinion I think, that the labyrinth is simple for any my builds.

There is also a "taxi" and others players can earns some chaos, when is our build weak, is low lvl, our internet connection not good or players are tired or they just dont like labyrinth, etc. then can take taxi.

Also exist a SSF(Solo Self-Found) players, who like the challenge when they playing solo without any trades etc.

I like the labyrinth, it's a fun for me. It's still also challenge for me, when I try to doing labyrinth with my lowest lvl or as quickly as possible, farming etc. (despite all the annoying crashes and lags) and my wish is another new and more difficult labyrinth.

However, I respect and I understand your point of view.
(Please excuse my English)

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Willemoesium wrote:

... It really amazes everytime, just how bad the lab is....

is it the lab or you?
dying to the second trap?
hmm