I really hate lab

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鬼殺し wrote:

Oh, sure. The current level of DPS trivialises most things though. If you can't think past the current meta, there's not much to discuss.

i can.

problem is - it is ggg that should do the thinking. and for several years now all they did was fuel this meta. with each and every buff buff buff + inability (unwillingness?) to cope with extremely broken crap that theyve themselves introduced

what i think matters very little. and i know that. ggg's actions - what i can see and read from the past - do not spark confidence at this point

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sidtherat wrote:

issue with 'destroyable traps' is that it will be what we have now - clown fiesta dps bonanza.. with current level of dps (that i do not expect to go anywhere but UP in 3.0) dps-based challenges are no challenges whatsoever. these only REWARD meta-only players. these plaeyrs do not need to be rewarded even more


traps irritate people so much because they cannot one-dimensionalize them ie. out-dps any skill check

so idea of traps that can be destroyed should not be pushed.

MS/quicksilver spam.. well. this is what this game is all about right now. so this part of the lab is EXACTLY what the rest of the game is: your clear speed (efficiency or 'how good the build is') depends mainly on your movement speed. 30% MS on boots can give a player bigger clearspeed boost than a mirrored weapon.

as long as the best (sorry, but it simply is this way.. i do not like it) way of playing POE is clear speed meta zoomboomzoomboom - lab should stay as it is. it rewards people doing EXACTLY what the rest of the game encourages: sprinting trough the content

this btw is the part that always makes me laugh when lab-haters claim that lab is so different than rest of the game. it isnt - it rewards exactly the same skill-set and mind-set. the only difference: no-skill glass cannons have it much easier in maps. lab can wipe them..



btw one-time entry should stay too. most 'DC' complaints are just chicken script users hiding their true agenda. if you allow people to zerg it - you can just as well remove it altogether and give everybody a free mirror and a sash of exalts. the last challenging (as in personal skill check) content gone..

I'm sorry @sidtherat, but I don't agree with you regarding destroyable traps.

We have destroyable traps that were introduced when "Uber Labyrinth" landed. What I envisioned regarding destroyable was instead turned on time basis hiding.

When I say destroyable I mean make traps have a request to be hit each by a minimum amount of 60 times and at a minimum of 50K damage, or 20 times with damage >150K, for example for a square of a spike trap in Uber Labyrinth. The purpose regarding destroyable is to make a safe path through trap gauntlets by forfeiting time, just like advancing with a tankier character like an Aegis build does through mobs. Having an opportunity to destroy them should have been something implemented from the get go for all traps.

You have to make destroyable traps balanced from a point of minimum requirements by tuning number of hits and damage to give diminishing returns for hitting and destroying them from a time perspective to still preserve the spam of MS skills and Quicksilvers as the fastest way to finish the "Labyrinth" when running for the "speed ladder".

You can reward sprinting through the content, but you can also reward full clearing said content or exploring via specific ladders for that - it wouldn't be bad to have separate awards for fully clearing "Labyrinth" or for fully exploring it for the random runs.

I used the thread that @Regulator did to expose my gripes and my suggestions from the start, when Ascendancy hit, but those discussion devolved as the "Labyrinth" was the content that had the community fractured.

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鬼殺し wrote:

Spoiler

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sofocle10000 wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

Bumping for Turtledove's convenience.

PS I like the Labyrinth. A good build can tackle it as soon as the trials are done, walk away with a good 2-3 levels and an incredible boost to power for the rest of the game. I'm not the biggest fan of having to run its current length three times (uber is something I never plan for) but I am confident the annoyance of that will be addressed in 3.0.

But I like the labyrinth, and believe me, I'm not no one.

Well, "Labyrinth" could be so much more. Right now, it lacks true purpose.

First of all, it should have at least a more intricate map layout with at least 3 paths from first room to the last Aspirant's Trial.

It should have either more visibility and better trap layouts to discourage the spam of MS/quicksilver potions, so you should always make relevant choices regarding pathing, and more monsters that should either be lured in traps or be fought with them in mind (as a viable prepare multi-tasking sequence before last Aspirant's Trial), or ways to forfeit speed running trap gauntlets for disabling them - either master switches in additional chambers that stop the traps from one of the paths, protected by dangerous enemies (multi essence modded rares level of dangerous), or even better making all traps from a path destructible, but time consuming in that regard - request a specific number of hits of a set minimal damage amount per trap.

For gaining the Ascendancy points each run of "Labyrinth" should be on a random layout, and limit the parties that run "Labyrinth" of players that have at most 2 more Ascendancy Points than the one with the smallest number (and Izaro should gain some bonuses when some players are more "powerful" then the others, just to keep the fight fair). "Carries" should be allowed or encouraged even, but at a just difference. And make Izaro fights start after everyone joins the Aspirant Trial fight area, so you at least fight for your life, if not fight versus Izaro for those points.

As soon as you get your points you can partake in the "speed run" ladders with the daily layout.

That would improve "Labyrinth" by giving him a purpose regarding minimal skill check - you navigate traps or you fight difficult enemies/destroy traps but forfeit your chance at the "speed running ladder" (even when you want to make enchant runs), and most of all, you will face one of the enemies that should make you tremble in fear, and experience an exacerbated enthusiasm when you face and vanquish him alone or with party members by your side. Not to mention the further gear/build check that will have to be passed in order to survive the Aspirant encounters.

When they implement those changes, you will see that the numbers of complains regarding Labyrinth diminish, even without an additional change regarding waypoints/portal numbers to have a chance to finish the run even if disconnected by server, just because GGG will take a stance and provide a fairer way to get that end goal that Ascendancy points are by making you work for them every time (even with the Hardcore feeling that you get one shot at completion, when you find yourself encouraged to explore the "Labyrinth" as a genial addition to content makes the reward more sweeter than ever).

The Ascendancy points are build defining, and "power creep" at it's best, so they should be given for a substantial effort from the players behalf.

This is EXTREMELY good feedback. Have you made a separate thread? I'd gladly do what I can to get it seen by the eyes that should see it. I'm not saying GGG would do any or all of it -- it's a lot of work, and of course 100% of their efforts are going towards 3.0 right now -- but it's exactly what I imagine would improve the situation for almost everyone. A means to disable traps would be spectacular, provided it's sufficiently difficult. A random layout is exactly what I've been arguing for for ages -- making it 'daily' is stupid, as all it does is encourage crap like a site that tells everyone about the day's layout. All to enable some lame and embarrassingly pointless 'ladder' that only marginally outstrips PvP in terms of relevance to the game proper.

Multiple paths? YES. Shrink the size of zones, increase the number of zones and thus the complexity of the labyrinth. That'd be awesome.

More secret pathways. More hidden goodies. Fewer fucking arbitrary golden door-->golden key side area crap.

Again -- I urge you to either isolate and expand on your ideas here, or please link me to where you've said as much. +1!

Well, this post has encompassed all my previous suggestions that I made since Ascendancy was released (I suggested destroyable traps before "Uber Labyrinth" was available so I felt great that my idea was implemented although in a different way than the one I hoped).

After my last ascension of the 2 characters that were kept with only 6 Ascendacy points, I do feel that "Labyrinth" has the most potential to bring a mentality change to the community.

PoE lacks difficulty - yes, I said it, but do read on and don't be quick to dismiss my opinions - and it can be trivialised now easier than ever. If GGG wants to change that, they should do so gradually, and "Labyrinth" is the place where they could try to do so, and start requesting strategical and tactical awareness and a constant improvement in skillplay from their player base.

Slapping HP or damage on monsters/bosses by map mods doesn't cut it anymore, due to continuous power creep that became expected by the community on a timed basis, when every league is released.

That is not a wrong thing, as this game should be "fun", and make you feel powerful. They should also require some minimums from the player to be reached by each act, the vanquishment of each act boss, and the progression from each tier (white, yellow, red) of maps. They should always have some item/build and skillplay checks. Right now, they are up in the air, not to mention the fact that post 90 they placed additional EXP penalties that discouraged the continuous testing of characters versus the end game content, and instead we have better danger/reward ratio from the "high end" content - tier 10-12 maps.

They should use "Labyrinth/Uber Labyrinth" as a mean to prepare players for further encounters, but for them to do so in a meaningful way, requests some QoL changes at least regarding visibility of certain trap gauntlets, if not further expansion on ways to bypass them.

I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps, when they could have had them intertwined so you pay attention at the enemies, and the traps in preparation for the epic fight versus Izaro. Not to mention the missed opportunities regarding the tactical advantages that a complex trap gauntlet would give you versus a difficult enemy.

I would further enjoy "Labyrinth" if it provided the danger/reward ratio for all it's areas just as it does for the Izaro fight, but to do so, there has to be an increase in dangerous situations as those make the difference between failure or success, and improve your experience and attachment to your character - PoE is an ARPG with Hack and Slash valences, but it should make you care more about your in game avatar, as it has one of the best stories and complexly developed game world around.

So all my other points do stand, but just imagine the "Labyrinth" with an area where you're required to flip a protected master switch to deactivate a complex trap gauntlet in another area, an area where you find a hidden passage that advances you on the map, and area where upon passing a door your set in an ad hoc arena, and an area where after you passed through a long corridor, you have monsters ambush you from behind with an wall closing in on you and threatening to flat you. All leading to the the first Aspirant trial.

Now that would be something to behold.

few troubles with destroyable traps (not that i do not agree with your idea 'in part')

- party. if you require me to hit a trap 20 times, party needs only 3.x hits on average
- summoners.. these are a) dumb b) numerous
- AOE spam. flameblast hits SEVERAL squares at once. cleave hits one. maybe.

these are just minor issues that might require serious thinking to not make yet another half-baked solution

same stuff with 'traps + mobs'. problem is that mobs in POE are dumb. they use typical swarm AI with no regard to environemnt. tormented spirits.. these should tell you already that AI in this game is not meant to do clever things. and creating a believable and smart AI is

and yes, id like to play stuff like this. but i doubt GGG has the manpower to make it happen. you can either script it and look 'wooden and stiff' or create an AI that really needs to be top notch. not happening

as for the last paragraph. id like to play lab you envisioned. but this is still an ARPG. it cannot be 'too complex' because it trully doesnt fit. current lab is 'simple' enough to still be A in ARPG and complex enough to tell a strory from RPG in ARPG. making it an entire act worth of content is far more expensive than relying on the cheapest of all: randomly generated content

so i like your vision despite it being highly unlikely to materialize but im not sure if that is not for another game.

as long as POE is about 'go go go go fast' (and it is - GGG did NOTHING to slow things down and they even let us chain shaped strands till 100 in 21 hours..) anything more complex than current lab would be way out of place

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sidtherat wrote:

few troubles with destroyable traps (not that i do not agree with your idea 'in part')

- party. if you require me to hit a trap 20 times, party needs only 3.x hits on average
- summoners.. these are a) dumb b) numerous
- AOE spam. flameblast hits SEVERAL squares at once. cleave hits one. maybe.

these are just minor issues that might require serious thinking to not make yet another half-baked solution

same stuff with 'traps + mobs'. problem is that mobs in POE are dumb. they use typical swarm AI with no regard to environemnt. tormented spirits.. these should tell you already that AI in this game is not meant to do clever things. and creating a believable and smart AI is

and yes, id like to play stuff like this. but i doubt GGG has the manpower to make it happen. you can either script it and look 'wooden and stiff' or create an AI that really needs to be top notch. not happening

as for the last paragraph. id like to play lab you envisioned. but this is still an ARPG. it cannot be 'too complex' because it trully doesnt fit. current lab is 'simple' enough to still be A in ARPG and complex enough to tell a strory from RPG in ARPG. making it an entire act worth of content is far more expensive than relying on the cheapest of all: randomly generated content

so i like your vision despite it being highly unlikely to materialize but im not sure if that is not for another game.

as long as POE is about 'go go go go fast' (and it is - GGG did NOTHING to slow things down and they even let us chain shaped strands till 100 in 21 hours..) anything more complex than current lab would be way out of place

Let's see if I can provide a few solutions to certain well put counter-arguments.

Regarding parties, you could always increase by 100% the requirements for each member so you end up having preserved the same difficulty regarding the destructible traps no matter the number of players in a party - so they all work in sync to take down a piece or spend exponentially more time to clear more parts.

Regarding summoners there are certain minimum threshold to be reached so DPS + number of hits should take that into account although due to those "dumb" + "numerous" there should be a rework regarding damageable traps and minions interactions.

Regarding AoE it's simple, make one trap be the one damaged by AoE effect in a way similar with Ice Crash not allowing overlapping of damage areas, so no matter your AoE, you only damage a trap at a time.

Regarding "traps + mobs", I do know that the AI is basic, but that also means that it can be improved, and some of the difficult enemies are where some improvements would make them great to fight in trap gauntlets - Exiles + multi essence mobs (when taking sustained trap damage they should try and find a spot where they're not going to get damaged by traps).

They could also find a way to make traps do percentage damage to monsters (if they don't do so already) so you'll have normal ones surviving 5 hits from a spike trap, magic ones 8 hits, rare/unique ones 10 and adjust those values to seconds for movable traps.

A few scripted situations will exponentially increase the "Labyrinth" experience, as long as they are in a set amount for one iteration. They should also be carefully added by the map generation mechanism so you never have more than 3 during one path to final Ascendancy Trial. You don't have to overuse them, but just sprinkle them at times, so you'll "wow" your audience - they could be just as rare as your chance to meet a "Labyrinth Trial" when running higher tier maps, and once experienced they don't have to pop up for a few map generations at least - you experience the "advancing wall" area, you'll might re-experience it post xx amount of runs/ x amount of days.

GGG should address balance issues on a more timely basis, but not having a link between EXP progression (at least post 95) and end game content that encourages users to stay "up there" will be one of my gripes with their additional EXP penalty post 90.

There was no need for that if they kept the rate the same as before, and instead linked map tiers with levels post 90 (have 90-91 farm tier 10-11 maps, have 92-93 farm tier 11-12, have 94-95 farm tier 12-13, have 96-97 farm tier 13-14, have 98-99 farm tier 15 and above), as those levels should require you greater than average investment knowledge wise, skillplay wise, and build/item/map wise.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

or even better making all traps from a path destructible, but time consuming in that regard

Why in the world would you do that ? What's the point ?

That would literally remove the only challenge that rests when people gets rushed through the lab, and the only challenging part also for players that can instant kill izaro because they followed the dumbest and opest meta build on the forum.

No, hell no, the lab is supposed to be a trial where Izaro judges you, some place supposed to be dangerous, not some silly place where you can just take your time and remove the obstacle if you want to.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps,

Desync. I get desync even with lockstep and ~40ms ping in tight quarters with monsters around.
Or rephrased: The game engine cannot handle it in such a way that the player is not "randomly" punished.

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Fruz wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

or even better making all traps from a path destructible, but time consuming in that regard

Why in the world would you do that ? What's the point ?

That would literally remove the only challenge that rests when people gets rushed through the lab, and the only challenging part also for players that can instant kill izaro because they followed the dumbest and opest meta build on the forum.

No, hell no, the lab is supposed to be a trial where Izaro judges you, some place supposed to be dangerous, not some silly place where you can just take your time and remove the obstacle if you want to.

If the only challenge in this game resides in navigating low visibility trap gauntlets we're better off giving all monsters 1 HP and make sure they all one shot us too (so 1 HP for us also) => it's only "kill or be killed".

Traps are destroyed all around the derelict "Labyrinth" so it's not such an impossible stance to see them all getting destroyed by your characters "impactful" attacks.

Traps should have never ever felt more dangerous than monsters in an ACTION RPG, except when using them to have untankable damage. PoE should make those gauntlets either unforgiving (but due to online only mandatory experience this is way harsher towards players), either bypassable with time consuming effects for those that want to experience a "safe" journey, just as an Aegis build provides safety through most content...

Not to mention the overlevel experience to complete said content - if you only had 1 chance to do "Labyrinth" when you reached a certain point and not be overleveled in regard to "Labyrinth" area level, and experience a mandatory solo run, you could talk about Izaro "judging" you.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

I never understood their stance that monsters should be separated from traps,

Desync. I get desync even with lockstep and ~40ms ping in tight quarters with monsters around.
Or rephrased: The game engine cannot handle it in such a way that the player is not "randomly" punished.

So you desync in trap gauntlets also?

The improvements in game engine mitigated desync and provided lockstep after everyone lost their confidence that it will be implemented so there could be further improvements that make monsters (at least certain ones - Exiles and multi essence modded, for example) and traps work in tandem...

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sofocle10000 wrote:

So you desync in trap gauntlets also?

Almost never. May have happened once or twice. But this is (presumably) because usually there are no mobs. I (in comparison) often desync in tight corridors with mobs in the lab. This has to do with using WB.

But I recently started a Templar with SC.
And I have seen one desync of similar nature with that as well: After opening a box and shield charging away I got zapped back. There were terrain obstacles around the box. This appears to be the part in most (or all) such desyncs for me.

Just to be clear what I mean with "often": Maybe once in 10 runs. And it is probably related to connection quality - but not 100% sure.

So the ingredients for desync: Difficult movement obstructing terrain. Many mobs - usually mobs all around the character. Using movement skill. Possibly (not sure): Targeting (unintentionally) a mob with the movement skill.

In comparison with many other players I usually have a very good connection with ~40 ms ping.

Firstly exp penalty at 66 isn't really that high. Go do a round of dried lake with a party; bam you're back where you were unless you're on SSF. In that case, I am sorry for your loss.

I do like farming merc lab occasionally for the rewards and enchant like OP said. That being said, I am open to OP's suggestion of giving the ascendancy points for that lab and all labs below it. It doesn't change how I play and removes the majority of the complaints about doing the lab 4 times. You can live without ascendancy points until you get Uber lab done; it's not as desirable but that's a decision.

I think that mapping should be more rewarding even at lower tiers.Between 5-6 T11 maps with 3 leaguestones and merc lab, merc lab typically actually wins. To me that is just flat out wrong.

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The_Reporter wrote:

sofocle10000's ideas are great. They are all more or less covered in the OP of Regulator's 'big' lab thread.

The main issue I have with the labyrinth/trials is that it's half-arsed. The system doesn't make any sense and feels annoying. Make it a real challenge. Give us something that tests more than quick silvers and move speed.

The main theme of SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas] is making the ascendancy points available outside the labyrinth. True that there are some improvements to labyrinth but sofocle10000 suggests some good ideas that aren't there. For example, removing what I consider the "cheating" daily layout publication stuff. As far as I'm concerned, the value of the lab ladder is a source to debunk assertions that labyrinth should only take 5 or 10 minutes for someone to get their ascendancy points. I agree with Charan that sofocle10000 should make a new thread and highlight his suggestions as a separate idea.

edit: if GGG wanted the layout known ahead of time (for some reason??) then they should make it part of the game not a separate website.