[R.I.P.] life Mjolner done right by Rico - Juggernaut version - R.I.P. thx to "balancing" policy

Woops, i think i made a mistake in my calcs xD but i think, now, im almost ready.
What a question: Why in our calcs, like you, Rico, made or me:
https://pastebin.com/Wmz0iYzx
indigon
In te calc, we still got RED numbers thats starts after 8-9s but we can stay under mino in the 25s fights, WHY we dont go out of mana?? And a clue for this is a cyclone mana spents.
Sure, cause cyclone, eat the next portion of mana when it comes to the end of distance. THe munimum distance is 10 units. I tried to ask on our Russian forums and admins, on English forums and admins, even try to support Email. To ask about movement speed in poe Units\Sec, but i get no answer anywhere. (Jugger have base ms under cyclone).

Then i record a short video and go on youtube redactor and start calculating timers, whe cyclone consumes mana in a different situations.

And what i get.


But, when i change Action Time, from 0.25 to 0.23, i got a much more Red numbers. And after a while, I realized what an idiot I was.
Youtube redactor have 00:60:60 format. And, i, sure, get numbers xx\60 instead of xx\100 like in poe.

Anyway, I recalculated the numbers in a different format,in this way, we have:
for ex, in continuous rotation, from youtube, we have 0,217 (~0.22).
So: 0.22\0.60 = X\1. Where X = 0,36. (In H\O no combat)
0.23\0.60 = X\1. Where X = 0,38. (In mino combat)
If i got the timer with x\100 sec i get there numbers.

When i add this number in the calc, i was very confused, what the difference between these two timings.

Indigon 0.38sec
Indigon 0.36sec

But when I looked at "0,38 indi" I didn't see any red numbers. Like on mino.

Proof. In my calc's i have around 0.36 action time not in combat. Without Arcane surge\"Hit recently"\Mana flask.
https://pastebin.com/xJie7dDr
Indigon test
And, sure without leech, i must go out of mana in 11.52s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_oRbGzR7WM
I start cyclone at ~4.49 and go out of mana at ~16.45. 11.96 sec. (In the calculator, is 11,52) Almost no different, this is like human mistakes, or a ping.

Now, think i can say the right numbers for the indigon calculator. 0.36-0.38 or more at boss fights

Also, sorry for my english guys, but i think, you can understand, what i want to say :)


P.s. But for this time calculations is for 30 sec.
Indigon 50 sec
In this way, i think, the Adrenaline quicksilver is a must have.
WIth this flask, i think we must have around 0.23. (In combat 0.14\0.60 = 0.23)
Indigon 50 sec with flask
Like mine, experimenters quicksilver of adrenaline. In this way, we get Red numbers after 8.28, but flask duration is 6,4. With this, at start, we can get the great stacks boost, adn when flask end, go back to normal mana spent, and don't get out of mana. Need more tests.

Oh nice explanation Doklol. Man i have a doubt, wich pantheons you use on your construction? same as Rico: Lunaris + Gruthkul for general maps and Solaris + Gruthkul for t16 mino and another bosses ?

i like all the indigon dmg builds, but i wonder how well they do in the darkness, if we can sustain mana with mom in there.
Also they seem less tanky then none indigon, atleast for old crit templar vs indigon.

Amonshar
i usualy dont bother with pantheon. Ye, i think it might be the same. But Shakari is also good for bosses like Constrictor. Arakaali seems better for the delve darkness and as bonus a life recovery after Rf+Dousing flask.

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Nisseonbeer wrote:

i like all the indigon dmg builds, but i wonder how well they do in the darkness, if we can sustain mana with mom in there.
Also they seem less tanky then none indigon, atleast for old crit templar vs indigon.

I can say that Templar Indigon version that I made recently is by far more tanky than non indigon Templar version that I made over 1 year ago. The key here is the understanding of the MoM (Mind over Matter) mechanics. When you have like 1300 mana regen/s + mana leech + x% dmg taken gained as mana your mana pool will almost never go down bellow 75% even under heavy dmg load as you can see in my T16 Minotaur facetnak vid. Meaning than you have all-time 30%+ dmg reduction on your life pool, basically making your life pool 1.3 times the number it shows. For just 4.5k life pool thats 5.8k effective hp pool (or EHP in short). Now there are ways to improve on that, I for example have watchers eye with additional 7% dmg taken from mana before life meaning I have constant 37% dmg reduction on life pool, making my pathetic (by number) 4.4k life basically a 6k EHP pool. However because both of those pools (hp an mana) are a) regenerating b) recovered by leech c) recovered by other mechanics like Kingsguard or x% damage taken gained as mana it feels way more tanky than it should.

The things that are dangerous are those big hits aka one shots mechanics from bosses but still, assuming you have almost full mana (90%+) before taking a shot you have a lot of EHP to soak it. More than that as indigon Jugg you have still 6k-8k armour, 7 endurance charges and 79% max resistances with fortify under it and build-in (Juggs passive) 5% overall dmg reduction. The thing that is lost is +4% to max resistances but you can make up for it by balancing your hp to mana with MoM mechanics.

@Daklol34 those are rally good findings. I felt that something in cyclone mana consumption is wrong as in my checks vs T16 Mino DPS was not as big as calculated in Indigon / PoB. When I assumed double the action time (aka 0.44-0.48) the numbers where much closer to the truth but still off by some margin. So thank you for a lot of work to finding those numbers. It will be also nice to know what exact attack speed you had when discovering those numbers so we can have some kind of translation like 0.X cyclone attack time in tooltip = 0.Y attack time for indigon calculation.

Also abut that 0.36 vs 0.38 that made you confused: just make them run for 60 sec and you will see that dmg roof is almost identical.

Both attack speed and mana cost of skill are decreasing the time needed to achieve dmg roof, making your up hill line more aggresive, bringing your huge DPS faster. At the same time they (attack speed and mana cost of skill) provide much more demand on mana resource to the point where you can no longer sustain it. While mana pool, mana regen, mana leech, mana recovery etc. provide both buffor needed for ramping up the DPS and sustain after reaching the dmg roof. It is kinda hard to balance all of that but thx to that calculator and now the numbers for attack time it can be done.

RicoKGB Yep i yeah I realized this later, when i start calculating the 50s indigons.

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Both attack speed and mana cost of skill are decreasing the time needed to achieve dmg roof, making your up hill line more aggresive.

Not the attack speed, Movement Speed.(Or for cyclone, i think better to say Action time) Attack speed affects how much hits deal cyclone during the movie.
For example, we know the time needed to move cyclone on a minimal distance (10units) and it is 0.36s with 0% to ms. So the base movenet speed: 1\0.36x10 = 27.7(Units\sec). And if cyclone start moving at 27.7 units, with 4aps (like poe shows) you will have time to make 4 attacks during this time.

With Quicksilver we have 0.23At. 1/0.23x10=43.4(Units\Sec) Therefore, at the same time, we can start 1.5 more cyclons on a minimal distance at the same time.

Also, i recommend you to take "Unstoppable". With this i got 0%Ms uder cyclone, instead of -10% and when pop flask, the difference betwenn movenet speeds is aroun +5-6%, so potentially this is a 15% increase to indigon generation.

I was thinking about attack time in indigon calc (or rather mana eating time stamp) but I wrote attack speed, my bad. What you removed to get Unstoppable? Unbreakable?

Unyielding, Sure, we have a lesser aoe, but arc is wery strong on pack clearing and huge aoe dont need for bosses. As a plus, in this way we dont need antifreeze flask and we get unaffected by temporal chains.

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Doklol34 wrote:

Unyielding, Sure, we have a lesser aoe, but arc is wery strong on pack clearing and huge aoe dont need for bosses. As a plus, in this way we dont need antifreeze flask and we get unaffected by temporal chains.

Fair enough. Ive managed to buy inyas with proper 2% regen enchant. Currently I have 750 mana regen with 5k mana and lvl 14 surge. Not quite there yet. Gonna work on some mana recovery bonus either by watchers eye or shaper belt. Gonna try this altogheter on friday as for next 3 days im on a business trip.