GGG, could you tell us what is going on with the Nazi-reference in act 5?

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Undoubtedly it already did accomplish at least one of its purposes, to make the player compare and liken the order of the high templars with that of the nazis, and in the process make him feel disgust and detestation for it so when confronting them there is a reasoned feeling of justice without the player thinking ooohhh im killing priest, im desecrating places of god etc.

The other one is marketing reasons, yes negative marketing is still marketing. This thing created a buzz, no matter the size its a buzz around the game. Some site or magazine sowewhere might see that and have a picture of it somewhere critizing the game for the bad choice of colours and structure for the symbol used, thats free advertizing. Having a reddit thread talking about it its still advertising the game no matter how subtle you think it is. Controversy and profanity are easy marketing tricks.

I can for sure agree with your reasoning here (and in your post in general). To the first paragraph I just think that it is quite the lazy approach of making a group of people out as the obvious bad guys (they apparently held a whole slave population in an inhumane way - there should be no more justification needed in the games own boundaries), though it definitely could be the reason why it is used. Your second given argument might be valid as well, though it would be a sad, even if practical goal.

And this is also the main goal of this forum thread: Just as an invitation for GGG to verify which reasoning led to them taking this design choice.
I realize it might by now be too late for a change, and I mean I will still play 3.0 with much pleasure and enjoyment, but it would still feel bitter to never hear the justification for this curious (and in my eyes wrong) design choice.

I just find it lame and uninspired. I honestly expected more from the GGG art department.


Not particularly offended by it. Those are the dudes you're going to be killing, sooooo... why is it offensive? Unless you're a Nazi...

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morbo wrote:

Agreed, it's a too much obvious RL reference.

I swear I saw also a "nazi eagle" on some of the 3.0 media. Lazy copy-paste.

E:

Spoiler

meh, I find it lazy and immersion breaking. That's all. At least the armbands should go, imo.

Actually that is a roman legion banner, almost an identical copy.



Also as far as I can see on the pictures the soldiers are not wearing those armbinds. So it is hard to tell how immersive it is without having more insight on the new oriath, since it seems to be that a new force has risen since Dominus departure.

You're better off targeting the entire aesthetic of some of the units as one is pretty clearly a Nazi Storm Trooper than the single armband which can be argued against.

Nazi's stole almost all of their iconography so you can find more examples of it than not so recent history. Studying history more will show you this is really common. Gods, Icons, Religion, Government, Symbolism, all of them are free game when you're creating an evil empire in real life. The Hindu can get particularly annoyed with the horrible association of the swastika to Nazi's when it has more peaceful meaning to them.

Also, yes, saying "I'm fine with it" is in fact, constructive criticism against an argument that insists something needs explained or changed. It very succinctly captures that the status quo is acceptable and thus no changes are needed. It's a criticism of the argument otherwise, not of the content and is as every bit as useful for the dev's as long diatribes on why something may personally offend you. Mind you this doesn't mean "I'm fine with it" is great criticism, but it does quickly belay a point of view.

What's not constructive is some of the name calling. Discuss it, express statements for and against, and treat each other with respect. Just because you don't understand why the other person has a different point of view doesn't make their view less valid. That's usually done by the quality of their arguments and is for each reader to judge individually.

I personally don't care about the symbolism because it seems to be doing exactly what it should. It's evocative, makes me want to get rid of them, and tells me very quickly what kind of empire this is. Those are all very good story telling techniques, so well done to the artists and story writers.

_WAter_

time heals wounds they say

for many Europeans it wont heal these wounds ever.

seeing someone - probably young and never soiled by war (were there any wars in new zeland ever?) - using such cheap tricks to convey a message is just sad

@ GriMTriAd

Thanks for your constructive arguments. It is always nice to read an answer that is well formulated and keeps to discussion etiquette - that makes a discussion way more enjoyable.
Unfortunately I feel like you rather flew over most of what I've written here before you wrote your answer (which is kind of understandable - it is a long text for something which apparently is an non-issue for quite a few), so I will have to disagree on quite a bit...

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You're better off targeting the entire aesthetic of some of the units as one is pretty clearly a Nazi Storm Trooper than the single armband which can be argued against.


Nazi's stole almost all of their iconography so you can find more examples of it than not so recent history. Studying history more will show you this is really common. Gods, Icons, Religion, Government, Symbolism, all of them are free game when you're creating an evil empire in real life. The Hindu can get particularly annoyed with the horrible association of the swastika to Nazi's when it has more peaceful meaning to them.

I wrote it already in my first paragraph: It is not even only about the armband. The red/black/white symbol clearly is prominently placed on large banners in many parts of Oriath. And I state it again and again: The similarity of the general design to the third reich and other similar groups that used similar bold symbolism in history before is not something I have a problem with, just the clear reference that gets made with said symbol, which is in itself imo not to be taken in another context than as a clear cut reference to Nazis (who do not appear in this game), thus immersion breaking.
Actually you already make my point for me: The Hakenkreuz is in itself a reference to a Swastika - with a connection that a Hindu would find himself wondering over, since it does not assign the meaning the person would expect for it. In the case of PoE the clear similarity screams "There is a connection to real world, 1930-1945 germany!", when clearly there is none, even if there are metaphorical parallels.

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Also, yes, saying "I'm fine with it" is in fact, constructive criticism against an argument that insists something needs explained or changed. It very succinctly captures that the status quo is acceptable and thus no changes are needed. It's a criticism of the argument otherwise, not of the content and is as every bit as useful for the dev's as long diatribes on why something may personally offend you. Mind you this doesn't mean "I'm fine with it" is great criticism, but it does quickly belay a point of view.

Oh, c'mon, you did read his comment, right? He literally called this part of the game a "fuck all", and continued to construct me as some kind of partisan who rises against a bunch of stuff he would have no reason to suspect me caring about in the first place. It is typical internet-like "I want to appear cool and strong and start showing my nonchalant I-don't-give-a-fuck-attitude".
You are right that a mere confirmation of "I personally am fine with it" is a sort of feedback for the devs. Certainly not a constructive criticism though, since for it to be constructive, it would have to bring any type of argument or suggestion to the table (why exactly does he thinks it's fine as it is? what does he say against the arguments I brought forth?). Like this it is mere opinion giving.

And could we please, for the love of god, stop with this "being offended" nonsense? I never wrote anywhere that I am in the slightest offended, and actually stated this not-being-offended multiple times, even already in the second paragraph of the post. It just makes any comment towards the contrary seem as if the person writing it did either not read what was written or did not care to understand it...

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I personally don't care about the symbolism because it seems to be doing exactly what it should. It's evocative, makes me want to get rid of them, and tells me very quickly what kind of empire this is. Those are all very good story telling techniques, so well done to the artists and story writers.

Well, here we have just very different opinions then, since I personally find this to be a really awful world building vehicle (I'd shy away from the story telling aspect, since it is more of a atmospheric aspect than one of the story). Actually the fact that it is part of the lore/world is way more meaningful to me than if it would have been part of the story. The storyline of PoE is (from a writers perspective) not exactly GGGs strong suite (which, given the ARPG genre-limitations, is quite acceptable), while they excel on the subject of atmosphere and world building. I did not speak up with the adding of the story-wise awful fourth act, and I still regret it every time I play through it (so many things make no sense at this place, it is quite astonishing). But whatever the story, all the world building design choices have been pure gold thus far. I'd really like it to continue being this way.

And all the reasons why I think that clear Nazi-references are not a good way, and rather unnecessary one at that, to communicate the fact that these are the bad guys I have already given. If you feel otherwise and are perfectly fine with the very direct and simple minded approach, that is completely fine, of course (though "unmotivated trope-usage" is ironically enough one of the primary telling signs of lazy writing that gets called out by critics of all kinds of media all the time, so calling it an objectively "good story telling technique" might be a bit far fetched).

not a good design in my opinion. i would almost feel ashamed if i designed that. its just poor taste

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mgasper0 wrote:

not a good design in my opinion. i would almost feel ashamed if i designed that. its just poor taste

Cuz you're offended?

lul

The vague Nazi references in the fictional world of a computer game make you feel opressed, offended, insecure and unsafe?

Fight these demons by dancing to Horst Wessel two times a day in the middle of your room for full mental comfort and peace! Ask your neighbours to join for a collective soul purification acquired in a state of divine exorcism!

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I_NO wrote:

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mgasper0 wrote:

not a good design in my opinion. i would almost feel ashamed if i designed that. its just poor taste

Cuz you're offended?

lul

kinda, yes