GGG, could you tell us what is going on with the Nazi-reference in act 5?

Hey there.

First of all I want to emphasize just how hyped I (as probably most other players) am about the announced expansion! 10 acts and officially supported SSF sounds just like all the things I have ever wished for in this game (well, apart from a Summon Skeletons that does not suck...one can but dream!). So, yeah, nice job there GGG!

Now to the main reason for this post: I was one of the many critics about the Nazi-like symbols that appeared on the characters that were spoiled with the announcement for the upcoming art book (this thread here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1830975). Now with the just released gameplay footage from act 5 (see here: http://www.gamepedia.com/news/1417-path-of-exile-act-5-the-fall-of-oriath-brings) my concerns are all the more deepened, as I see the oh-so-obvious Nazi-symbol-reference literally on every banner in (probably) all of Oriath, staring me in my face and making me wonder when I hopped in to the dimension portal back over to 1945, Germany. I made a few points about it in the aforementioned thread already, and would just like to repeat them here in a condensed fashion:

First, let's talk about the thing itself: The symbol which is prominently depicted on armbands and banners. Or to be more precise that manner said symbol is depicted, since obviously the symbol itself is not the problem. This manner is the templar insignia in a bold black manner in a white circle, with a red backdrop. Obviously that is exactly the way the Nazi party in germany depicted their Swastika-like symbol. Some people tried to argue that this similarity would not be an obvious case since similar things have been used already before, but let's be frank here: This symbol has not been used in that way in the western world since 1945 without being a frank throwback, and anyone not (at least subconsciously) having an immediate association with it probably does not care much for history lessons.

How do I now think this throwback to a symbol used so singular in a certain time period in the real world is problematic? For me this case is all about immersion breaking. Like mentioned before, I personally can not not think about Nazis when I see it. So for me, the idea of battling something that is somehow linked to said Nazi party is something I would constantly conjure in my mind while playing. Also, the afore mentioned association does not do anything for me game- and lore-wise. We have encountered the insignia within the white circle before, but never depicted in this particular history-related way. That just feels tacked on. And it also does not heighten the (perceived) threat of the enemies or the imperium we are fighting, since - as I said before - there is no connection to Nazi germany in the lore, and it all just feels a bit silly. All of the cruelty, forced uniformity and fanaticism should be enough to get that point across. So why is it there? Shock value? Provocation? I at least do not know...

Of course I know that having a strong symbolism is used by all totalist regimes, at all times. That is perfectly fine. Just using this particular combination of colors and shapes is in my opinion completely unnecessary. What I think the best solution can be actually already found in the gameplay-footage: the carpets for some reason depict the templar symbol in pure gold on a red background. This is still quite striking design wise, very clear, and also fits way more with the way similar aesthetics have been depicted so far (the red and golden of the temples of Sarn, for example). But to be frank, any other solution that goes towards a more original design would be highly appreciated.

Now, just to be clear (since that came up in that thread way too often): this is not about feelings being hurt, or good taste being offended, just about in my opinion questionable and unnecessary aesthetic decisions that would cheapen the enjoyment of an otherwise probably very pleasantly crafted gaming experience. Also, for all the other comments that I've read making fun of the immersion breaking effect of things like glowing rainbow wings - honestly, this is a world where a demon-like sorcerer starts manipulating reality with gems. I do not mind some sparkle in this world. This is completely unrelated to the issue at hand (a nod to a real-life event), and feels more like the garena-pet incident - except of course that I do not have to play with that abomination through two whole acts of PoE...

The main reason I open this again here is now to maybe get GGG to respond to this issue. Since the 3.0 announcement Bex had the time to answer to quite a few posts over at reddit, so I figured now is the time if at all.

Seeing as it is already implemented in game the point of no return might be reached and I will have to live with this huge case of a immersion break after all. Well, so be it. Still, at the very least I would like to at least hear the idea behind this design decision, and why it got implemented the way it did. Is it really just a pulp-like exploitation move? Maybe someone really likes this tongue-in-cheek b-movie-reference-style over at GGG and wanted to implement some nods towards it? Or it is meant to be a serious reflection on the horrors of a fascist totalist state? Some clarification would really help me out over here...

At least don't let us hanging like this GGG, and give us some closure! (and yes, judging from the reactions there definitely are quite a few of us who are not very thrilled about this) Just letting this go down quietly would feel like the cheap way out, and would make me quite disappointed (although I'll still love you, of course!).

I know this is probably a thing which will not come in one sentence or two, and is something which takes a bit more than just one person saying "hey, this is how it went...", so don't worry, I can wait a bit...

All the best wishes,
A.M.

Edit: Changed the title (the other one sounded like a robot requesting a sit-in with the NATO - I blame my evening read for that...)

Well... You've seen what Piety was up to in Lunaris right? She has basically been Josef Mengele for a while now. I would imagine that the imagery is less "tongue in cheek exploitation" as it is "serious use of images to evoke the evils of the totalitarian state in Oriath under the Templars"... I know you are asking for GGG to answer, but this is just my view on it. GGG has talked in the past about drawing inspiration from research done on what causes visceral reactions. I remember specifically a discussion about the miners in act 4, who have a "swiss cheese" style hole-texture all over them, which is a result of GGG researching and finding that people were most disgusted or horrified by the idea of gaping holes in the human body in places they did not belong. I think the images we see now with act 5 are probably a similar thing. The visceral reaction people are having is intended. Just look at the image of the mob that has saws and hooks and shit for hands, with his real hands severed and nailed to the side of his head... pretty horrifying.

Actually if you look back at history, Nazis took their symbolic from the Roman empire and Oriath empire is based on Roman empire....


So technically They are not Nazi-like but Roman-like.



edit: also, Nazis are good villain they are fun to kill :3

"

diablofdb wrote:

Actually if you look back at history, Nazis took their symbolic from the Roman empire and Oriath empire is based on Roman empire....


So technically They are not Nazi-like but Roman-like.



edit: also, Nazis are good villain they are fun to kill :3

He did say he was specifically talking about the red arm band, with a black symbol inside a white circle. That is a very specific reference.

Agreed, it's a too much obvious RL reference.

I swear I saw also a "nazi eagle" on some of the 3.0 media. Lazy copy-paste.

E:

meh, I find it lazy and immersion breaking. That's all. At least the armbands should go, imo.

I'm probably wasting my time but can any of you clowns google "red armband" and tell me what you see? This is something that has been used in the military of Russia (exact same color scheme), China and Germany. The roman eagle is something that again existed before Germany. Stop being stupid.

Whatever, all these piled together have too much recent historical reference and I dont like political RL in a fantasy game. Smells too much like Path of Wolfenstein. Stop being a Nazi lover >_< :P

@ Docbp87 and diablofdb


Thanks for your constructive arguments. Actually, these are two common misconceptions I encountered already in the announcement thread, so excuse me when I go a bit into detail here:

"

Well... You've seen what Piety was up to in Lunaris right? She has basically been Josef Mengele for a while now. I would imagine that the imagery is less "tongue in cheek exploitation" as it is "serious use of images to evoke the evils of the totalitarian state in Oriath under the Templars"... I know you are asking for GGG to answer, but this is just my view on it. GGG has talked in the past about drawing inspiration from research done on what causes visceral reactions. I remember specifically a discussion about the miners in act 4, who have a "swiss cheese" style hole-texture all over them, which is a result of GGG researching and finding that people were most disgusted or horrified by the idea of gaping holes in the human body in places they did not belong. I think the images we see now with act 5 are probably a similar thing. The visceral reaction people are having is intended. Just look at the image of the mob that has saws and hooks and shit for hands, with his real hands severed and nailed to the side of his head... pretty horrifying.

Yes, those similarities are very much clear. And these atmospheric set-pieces are quite the work of art as well (in a twisted sense). The difference to the criticized symbol of course being, that these kind of gruesome acts are not a singularity in history. They are a showcase of the kind of inhumane thinking that repels us in retrospect of those who inflicted them. And while there may have been a coincidental usage of a exact replica of the used nazi-symbol-style long before they used it, it is just not drilled in our brain in the way the Hakenkreuz is (I just use the german name for it, since there is no good english equivalent for it afaik). So when I think of gruesome manslaughter and inhumane scientific experiments I can shift that towards a multitude of fictitious empires - when it comes to that specific symbolism, I just cannot.
All in all, it's a matter of show-don't-tell: Implying a haunting similarity between the ebony legions and parts of the Nazi-party through similar themes is good storytelling. Straight up pointing out: "Hey, these are Nazis!" is bad storytelling (or implies that this particular fantasy world has either direct real world tie-ins or a meta tie in, which would then make it exactly the kind of pulpy storytelling I was writing about). You already give a good example: Having holes in unexpected parts of the body is good atmosphere building because it creeps us out without feeling forced. If the enemies instead would all of a sudden come out of a dark area and screamed "I am creepy!" it would feel forced and incoherent.

In a similar direction also goes:

"

Actually if you look back at history, Nazis took their symbolic from the Roman empire and Oriath empire is based on Roman empire....


So technically They are not Nazi-like but Roman-like.

Yes, the fascist aesthetic was very much modeled after the (perceived) roman aesthetic of the long gone empire. And for a good reason: The gigantic scale of it's architecture and the bold, strong, parallel lines and slick and at the same time rich design of its symbols and fashion inspires awe in followers and fear in enemies. That is why they used it. Again, this is a universal thing. It holds up for every civilization that relied on such a way of government (think of the babylonian ziggurats). But the difference to the used symbol is, that the former draws a parallel while the latter directly cites. The former is subtle and evoking, while the latter is direct and final. A huge difference in my opinion.

And about the last part:

"

edit: also, Nazis are good villain they are fun to kill :3

Even though (for given reasons) this is not really addressing the criticism I put forward (again, if Nazis are good or bad villains is not the point - the point is that they don't fit the game world) it is actually an interesting point that got me thinking a bit about the perception of violence in media in general.

(careful: major digression ahead!)

The thing is, I personally keep away from all overly real feeling violence in entertainment (as in - media used as a means of recreation, not information gathering or exposition through artistic means). That usually refers to all realistic feeling video games as well - with the little caveat that I do not mind it as long as it is contained within a certain time period that feels to far apart from my own to evoke my full empathy (as it usually is in all kind of fantasy, which usually draws upon medieval or earlier history). Apparently the difference in perception is here already so big that the empathic ability of mine suffers immensely, even though a game like PoE is certainly not the tamest when it comes to cruelty and violence. It therefore is quite interesting to me how other people who are more tolerable of violence close to their own perceived world are looking at this. Let's say you are in a realistic WWII-scenario in a game - does that not suffocate you, to think that this really has happened, and could happen again to people you know or might have known? And as a follow up question: Is it not hypocritical to have this empathic reaction but then not flinch about it when you encounter a (probably) similar level of violence but can't just relate as well due to it being in a far off time like I do? (although, now that I think about it: I would probably have a similar empathic reaction if a piece of media would be very good at conveying to me the feeling of dread in the face of violence, no matter the times - said piece would just have to be even more intense in the far gone historical setting I am mentioning...).
Anyway, this has not much to do with the issue at hand, so everybody please feel free to ignore it. ;)

What a pointless wall of text over fuck all...if it wasn't the "nazi" stuff it would be the globe girls or the corpses or the nudity...get a fucking grip you child

There isn't a fucking issue and they're likely keeping this nazi theme which is fine honestly making a big deal out of nothing.

It's good they have balls for once to NOT change the theme because they offended people like you I suppose.