Hello, First I will like to say thank you for the awesome guide. I have been following this guide for my second ever PoE character and I have had alot of fun so far.
Can you recommend a gear update ? Is the lab enchantment on gloves better than the spiked gloves 20% ?
Here is what I have so far:
a) Does the "proc" rate of Molten Burst have a cap? Or should be always go for more attack speed=more hits more procs? Like Poets pen, the procs have an internal cooldown of 250ms.
A friend of mine said something about 5 aps on Cyclone, but im not really sure.
If not i imagine attack speed would be our best damage increase.
b) I wonder what stats on Abyss and/or normal jewels would actually be THE best. So far i always took Abyss jewels with attack speed some flat life and flat added fire damage.
Kira
I went watcher's eye + tombfirst and min.max some other gear however losing the armour, life and res stats on the gloves (and jewel) has meant my life and armour took a beating however my dmg output has gone through the roof.
Can you have a look at my gear.
I went from 3K armour + 6.1k life to 5.9k life +2400 armour (tombfist + watcher's eye)
Not sure if it was all worth it...spent all my ex as well :(
As for damage, I saw an increased of +48% (at the expense of the above life and armour)...
Effective DPS using PoB went from 334936k cyclone to 496856 - cyclone dmg (not including molton burst or totem)
Last edited by swiftwilly#0551 on Jan 3, 2018, 6:28:21 AM
Yes. This is what I want to see when it comes to debate. Facts and figures. Having a pastebin pasted makes it easier for the discussion. :)
A little history to the pastebin that I have used for this debate, it is the one listed in the guide, created in 2.6 SSF league (outdated by now).
Back then, reflect is a thing, thus Sibyl ring. And this ring has since been removed from the recommended section in the guide when 3.1 hits.
Diamond Skin was picked because of The Red Dream jewel that I was using in 2.6. I see that you have that removed from the pastebin you posted. That is fine.
The skill tree in that pastebin was also not following the latest version listed in the guide.
In terms of gear rolls, pretty much sharing things around my characters so we don't have to go into that. In SSF, there is no room for luxury when it comes to gearing. ;)
And I didn't bother to update that pastebin to fully reflect 3.1 changes since fundamentally it works the same.
Now lets get back to facts and figures, using your pastebin. Switching between Added Fire and Fire Penetration as the 6th gem for Cyclone.
"
Here is the stats from your pastebin with Added Fire as 6th gem (no flask, just covered in ash):
Spoiler
Shaper DPS with Double Anger Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen. Watcher's Eye
"
From the above, you are right that fire penetration version of Watcher's Eye is ahead of extra fire version.
So now things get very interesting if I replace Added Fire with Fire Penetration. It isn't what you had stated.
"
Here is the stats from your pastebin with Fire Penetration as 6th gem (no flask, just covered in ash):
Spoiler
Shaper DPS with Double Anger Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen. Watcher's Eye
"
From the above, it shows clearly that extra fire version of Watcher's Eye pull way ahead of fire penetration version.
Now, for science, I imported the latest 3.1 Primeval Force skill tree into your pastebin.
"
Here is the stats without any flask active (Primeval Force provides more damage when you have at least 1 active flask):
Spoiler
Shaper DPS with Double Anger Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen. Watcher's Eye
"
From the above, Primeval Force or not, extra fire version of Watcher's Eye still pulls way ahead.
For even more Science, now lets use a more damage focused Primeval Force skill tree, also no active flasks.
"
Here is the stats without any flask active
Spoiler
Shaper DPS with Double Anger Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire Watcher's Eye
"
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen. Watcher's Eye
"
Once again, extra fire version of Watcher's Eye pulls further ahead.
Here is the pastebin based on the one you pasted, with 2 x imported 3.1 Primeval Force skill trees.
Shaper DPS with Double Anger: 290607
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire: 252031
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen.: 254444
Life: 6627
Fire Penetration as 6th Gem
"
Shaper DPS with Double Anger: 301273
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire: 271146
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen.: 253269
Life: 6627
@_Tiem's Modified Skill Tree - More Damage (didn't include the screenshots but you can find it in the pastebin)
"
Fire Penetration as 6th Gem
"
Shaper DPS with Double Anger: 333247
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire: 299923
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen.: 279536
Life: 6105
3.1 Primeval Force Skill Tree Listed in Guide (without any active flask) - More Life
"
Fire Penetration as 6th Gem
"
Shaper DPS with Double Anger: 300370
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire: 271302
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen.: 253360
Life: 6621
3.1 Primeval Force Skill Tree Listed in Guide (without any active flask) - More Damage
"
Fire Penetration as 6th Gem
"
Shaper DPS with Double Anger: 339063
Shaper DPS with Extra Fire: 306251
Shaper DPS with Fire Pen.: 285638
Life: 6166
NOTE: The above stats are no flask no buff (except covered in ash). The number differences will be much larger when fully buffed.
Conclusion, if you can only afford a single anger roll on Watcher's Eye, go for:
Gain #% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage while affected by Anger
Btw, what prejudice do you have with Primeval Force? By any chance related to Star Wars?
Ok you're all over the map. And I don't see the numbers you're getting so I'm not sure what you're ticking or doing in POB. Let's simplify. First off, this for the tree without PF:
Watcher's Eye (double Anger):
Fire Penetration: 301k
Added Fire: 290k
Watcher's Eye (added fire)
Fire Penetration: 271k
Added Fire: 252k
Watcher's Eye (fire penetration)
Fire Penetration: 253k
Added Fire: 254k
Fire Pen WE pulls ahead but less than 1% but it pales in comparison to the added fire variant. So don't get it because it's the same price as the added fire variant provides way less dps no matter which gem you socket. We can drop it from discussion as it's not a viable choice; there are plenty of added fire ones for sale.
Now if you opt back into PF: Watcher's Eye (double Anger):
Fire Penetration: 305k
Added Fire: 296k
Watcher's Eye (added fire)
Fire Penetration: 275k
Added Fire: 258k
PF pulls ahead. I've never argued that it's weaker than other options, what I argued was that it comes at a cost. Namely losing life and an overlooked, but very valuable stat of dropping your mana consumption. Having 180 mana for a skill that requires 42 to cast is very restrictive. Which is why you have to run with a mana flask I'm betting. If you take Tireless, it shaves the cost from 42 to 36. It may not seem like much but it's actually enough to not worry about mana (unless you keep spinning into nothing). Losing the mana flask, you could pick up Writing Jar to proc Headsman, which would be a free 20% more damage multi proc. That's far bigger than scrounging a few percent on your total damage.
Also, I should point out that unless you overcap your fire to ridiculous levels, which is costly as that takes either nodes away from your pool, or worse, slots away from your gear, Taste of Hate is going to negate Wise Oak as it will drive cold resist beyond fire, nullifying the fire penetration it brings. So you can't pop them at the same time. Also, you have the legacy version in POB. The new one in Abyss+ is capped at 15%, not 20%, so you aren't getting the same mileage out of it. You really should update your POB link to Abyss. You could create a legacy one, but who really cares about Standard lol.
I don't hate PF, I just think it's expensive for the cost. Everything in POE is about cost vs reward. The cost doesn't justify the reward. If it was str travel nodes then hell yeah or even better int nodes which would save us from restrictive gearing and taking that 30 int from the tree, but they are dex, which are worthless to the build.
PS: Don't check "do you have a flask active" under the configuration tab. It does wonky things. If you want to activate all the flasks, just check them individually under the items tab.
Deliver pain exquisite
Last edited by ultratiem#0592 on Jan 3, 2018, 7:23:45 AM
a) Does the "proc" rate of Molten Burst have a cap? Or should be always go for more attack speed=more hits more procs? Like Poets pen, the procs have an internal cooldown of 250ms.
A friend of mine said something about 5 aps on Cyclone, but im not really sure.
If not i imagine attack speed would be our best damage increase.
b) I wonder what stats on Abyss and/or normal jewels would actually be THE best. So far i always took Abyss jewels with attack speed some flat life and flat added fire damage.
The cooldown for MB projectiles is 0.15s, not 0.25s. Attack speed is optimal for Cyclone because of the inherent skill and how it works (contrary to skills like Ice Crash or EQ).
The best Abyss jewel stats are:
You ideally want:
Added # fire damage
Life
Added fire to axe attacks
Increased damage to Abyssal monsters
This build can support around around 4-6 (maybe 7?) depending on how you tune it. If you stack at least an average of 35% increased damage to abyssal monsters on each one, you're amping your damage by a whopping 140-210%. Trash explodes on a 4L. Even rare or magic mobs die in a flash when you reach end game stats. Abyssal monsters are ridiculously overtuned and you should have noticed this while leveling in the new league. So having that much actually puts them on par with regular trash.
It obviously doesn't help you with Shaper so you can elect to go with something else for the Shaper fight if you like. Added physical damage is excellent because we scale everything through it. So a good physical roll will pull ahead of a good fire roll. Flat life is amazing. About 30 flat life = 5% and if you can get a T1 roll (I believe its 50), then it will scale higher than a 7% roll on a regular jewel.
Other nice stats include:
-Increased % attack speed
-Added # physical damage
-Increased % damage if you've killed recently
And some nice supportive stats include:
-Increased # intelligence
-Increased % movement speed if you've killed recently (if you stack 5 of these at max rolls, you could up your speed by 20%! Movement speed is absolutely king as Leap Slam is a poor movement skill compared to Whirling Blades or Shield Charge. With Devoto's, top quality boots, you would have 80% movement speed if you kept your kills up!)
% to resistances
Hello, First I will like to say thank you for the awesome guide. I have been following this guide for my second ever PoE character and I have had alot of fun so far.
Can you recommend a gear update ? Is the lab enchantment on gloves better than the spiked gloves 20% ?
Here is what I have so far:
Spoiler
On gloves enchant, it helps in map clearing as it can 1 shot mobs in red maps. I would say it is good free damage. If you want to go for gloves enchant, use a pair of Titan Gauntlets instead.
I would roll anti-freeze on quick silver flask because during flask effect, you will be immune to freeze.
a) Does the "proc" rate of Molten Burst have a cap? Or should be always go for more attack speed=more hits more procs? Like Poets pen, the procs have an internal cooldown of 250ms.
A friend of mine said something about 5 aps on Cyclone, but im not really sure.
If not i imagine attack speed would be our best damage increase.
b) I wonder what stats on Abyss and/or normal jewels would actually be THE best. So far i always took Abyss jewels with attack speed some flat life and flat added fire damage.
Ans A: You definitely want very high APS. Not just for proc-ing the balls, but it also provide Cyclone with massive damage to the build.
Ans B: What you picked is fine. You can replace fire damage with flat physical. For recommended stats, check out the Abyssal Jewels section in the guide, I have put up a pretty detailed breakdown of stats that you want for min/max.
Ok you're all over the map. And I don't see the numbers you're getting so I'm not sure what you're ticking or doing in POB. Let's simplify. First off, this for the tree without PF:
Watcher's Eye (double Anger):
Fire Penetration: 301k
Added Fire: 290k
Watcher's Eye (physical to fire conversion)
Fire Penetration: 271k
Added Fire: 252k
Watcher's Eye (fire penetration)
Fire Penetration: 253k
Added Fire: 254k
Spoiler
Fire Pen WE pulls ahead but less than 1% but it pales in comparison to the physical conversion variant. So don't get it because it's the same price as the physical conversion variant provides way less dps no matter which gem you socket. We can drop it from discussion as it's not a viable choice; there are plenty of physical conversion ones for sale. You want to grab the physical conversion variant or obviously the dual WE.
Now if you opt back into PF: Watcher's Eye (double Anger):
Fire Penetration: 305k
Added Fire: 296k
Watcher's Eye (physical to fire conversion)
Fire Penetration: 275k
Added Fire: 258k
PF pulls ahead. I've never argued that it's weaker than other options, what I argued was that it comes at a cost. Namely losing life and an overlooked, but very valuable stat of dropping your mana consumption. Having 180 mana for a skill that requires 42 to cast is very restrictive. Which is why you have to run with a mana flask I'm betting. If you take Tireless, it shaves the cost from 42 to 36. It may not seem like much but it's actually enough to not worry about mana (unless you keep spinning into nothing). Losing the mana flask, you could pick up Writing Jar to proc Headsman, which would be a free 20% more damage multi proc. That's far bigger than scrounging a few percent on your total damage.
Also, I should point out that unless you overcap your fire to ridiculous levels, which is costly as that takes either nodes away from your pool, or worse, slots away from your gear, Taste of Hate is going to negate Wise Oak as it will drive cold resist beyond fire, nullifying the fire penetration it brings. So you can't pop them at the same time. Also, you have the legacy version in POB. The new one in Abyss+ is capped at 15%, not 20%, so you aren't getting the same mileage out of it. You really should update your POB link to Abyss. You could create a legacy one, but who really cares about Standard lol.
I don't hate PF, I just think it's expensive for the cost. Everything in POE is about cost vs reward. The cost doesn't justify the reward. If it was str travel nodes then hell yeah or even better int nodes which would save us from restrictive gearing and taking that 30 int from the tree, but they are dex, which are worthless to the build.
PS: Don't check "do you have a flask active" under the configuration tab. It does wonky things. If you want to activate all the flasks, just check them individually under the items tab.
I believe there is a typo in your post. I suppose you meant "Extra physical damage as Fire" instead of "physical to fire conversion". You don't want conversion version of Watcher's Eye and I believe you know that. :)
And you know what just occurred to me?
The stats you posted and the one I posted in the screenshot are exactly the same and that gave me the hint that we are talking about two different things here.
You are talking about fire penetration and extra damage to the build as a whole.
I am talking about Watcher's Eye.
There are a number of players asking:
"
If I can only afford 1 anger mod on Watcher's Eye, which is better?
1) "Gain #% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage while affected by Anger", or
2) "Damage Penetrates #% Fire Resistance while affected by Anger"
And my reply is:
"
If they can only afford 1 anger mod, go for "Gain #% of Physical Damage as Extra Fire Damage while affected by Anger".
It gives the build more damage than the other mod.
The stats you just posted exactly illustrates that.
And I find it funny that you are discussing my gears in that SSF profile. As I have said, the gears in there are shared among my SSF characters so you are bound to see stats that are over the place and can be not fitting for the build.
On that mana pot (it probably is an eye sore to you thus you keep mentioning it ;), the only situation I run the build with that is when the map rolls "no mana regen". And it is highly likely that the paste bin was created right after I did such a map back in 2.6 days.
I know how to gear the character. Afterall I created this build 1 year ago, putting it through extensive tests with other players, and updated those information into the guide (i.e. Recommended Rares). :)
Kira
I went watcher's eye + tombfirst and min.max some other gear however losing the armour, life and res stats on the gloves (and jewel) has meant my life and armour took a beating however my dmg output has gone through the roof.
Can you have a look at my gear.
I went from 3K armour + 6.1k life to 5.9k life +2400 armour (tombfist + watcher's eye)
Not sure if it was all worth it...spent all my ex as well :(
As for damage, I saw an increased of +48% (at the expense of the above life and armour)...
Effective DPS using PoB went from 334936k cyclone to 496856 - cyclone dmg (not including molton burst or totem)
Yes that is fine. You gain way more than you lost. You can consider getting a few abyssal jewels that come with flat life. That will easily push your life pool back over 6000.
An abyssal belt with a flat life abyssal jewel will help greatly too.
The cooldown for MB projectiles is 0.15s, not 0.25s. Attack speed is optimal for Cyclone because of the inherent skill and how it works (contrary to skills like Ice Crash or EQ).
The best Abyss jewel stats are:
You ideally want:
Added # fire damage
Life
Added fire to axe attacks
Increased damage to Abyssal monsters
Spoiler
This build can support around around 4-6 (maybe 7?) depending on how you tune it. If you stack at least an average of 35% increased damage to abyssal monsters on each one, you're amping your damage by a whopping 140-210%. Trash explodes on a 4L. Even rare or magic mobs die in a flash when you reach end game stats. Abyssal monsters are ridiculously overtuned and you should have noticed this while leveling in the new league. So having that much actually puts them on par with regular trash.
It obviously doesn't help you with Shaper so you can elect to go with something else for the Shaper fight if you like. Added physical damage is excellent because we scale everything through it. So a good physical roll will pull ahead of a good fire roll. Flat life is amazing. About 30 flat life = 5% and if you can get a T1 roll (I believe its 50), then it will scale higher than a 7% roll on a regular jewel.
Other nice stats include:
-Increased % attack speed
-Added # physical damage
-Increased % damage if you've killed recently
And some nice supportive stats include:
-Increased # intelligence
-Increased % movement speed if you've killed recently (if you stack 5 of these at max rolls, you could up your speed by 20%! Movement speed is absolutely king as Leap Slam is a poor movement skill compared to Whirling Blades or Shield Charge. With Devoto's, top quality boots, you would have 80% movement speed if you kept your kills up!)
% to resistances
Personally, the ideal stats for Abyssal jewels will be:
"
- 25 to 50 flat life (prefix)
- Add 7 to 12 flat physical damage to axe (prefix)
- Add 15 to 40 flat fire damage (suffix)
- Add 4 to 8 flat physical damage (suffix)
- 2% elemental resistance penetration if you have not kill recently (suffix)
- #% increased damage against abyssal monsters (suffix)
For highest damage output (all situation):
"
- 25 to 50 flat life (prefix)
- Add 7 to 12 flat physical damage to axe (prefix)
- Add 15 to 40 flat fire damage (suffix)
- 2% elemental resistance penetration if you have not kill recently (suffix)
For highest damage output (for abyss):
"
- 25 to 50 flat life (prefix)
- Add 7 to 12 flat physical damage to axe (prefix)
- Add 15 to 40 flat fire damage (suffix)
- #% increased damage against abyssal monsters (suffix)
Flat physical damage has higher rank than fire damage because it is the base damage before conversion. It benefits from physical damage %, and fire damage %.
The rest of the pointers you wrote are valid so I won't cover that.
I just want to highlight to other readers (you have it mentioned, but they might miss that part) is that "#% increased damage against abyssal monsters" only work against abyssal monsters.
Last edited by kira1414#3753 on Jan 3, 2018, 9:19:37 AM
You are talking about fire penetration and extra damage to the build as a whole.
LOL, ya. I also fixed the typo, good catch. But yes, dropping Fortify for Fire Pen on your Bronn's gives you way more dps. You can link Fortify on Leap Slam that's more than enough to get the buff up. It obviously comes down to skill at that point, but it's definitely worth the trade off for the insane boost to damage.
But yeah, the added fire variant of WE is better than the fire pen version, hands down.
Hey dudes. I just came back to PoE when this league started. It had been a while. I always just start playing the game with no build in mind and go the way that loot tempts me.
Spoiler
Surprisingly this time, I ended up doing well and I'm using cyclone/warchief/sunder for the first time. Long story short, I found this build, dropped sunder and picked up Ngamahu when I hit Act 10.
So now I am level 83 (my record is a level 84 essence drainer) and the last time I died was on the Act 10 boss. It's really fun, I have just been using upgrades that drop in T1-5 maps and it feels like butter cutting through mobs. I can pop all abysses I see at once, strongboxes, whatever. It's amazing.
Anyway - I just wanted say thank you even though I've half-assed it, as I slowly convert and use your build as a guide.
After picking through it a bit more while I'm at work today, I realized I think I actually got Bronn's to drop last night and I just tossed it in the bank not noticing it's a key item here. That will be fun to maybe work on while I map and try to socket something myself for the first time ever. Now I just need to figure out how to raise my damage a bit, although the 40k or so tooltip I'm at right now is far beyond anything I've ever played.
Here's some things I found so far on my own that I think fit the build ok.
Also confirmed, I have this sitting in my stash from last night lol..
Thanks for sharing your experience with the build. Looking at your skill tree, I can see what you meant by converting to the tree listed in guide. :)
Surgebinders are not suitable for the build. Tombfist will work better when you socket a murderous abyssal jewel into it as it gives you intimidate aura.
Otherwise, follow the recommended sections in the guide for gearing. :)
Want to hear the worst part? I started this character with the intention of using lightning arrow or something similar. I made it around level 35 or so and I just couldn't kill a thing. My passives were over in the ranger side and I had a ton in bow nodes. So, I'm surprised I've transitioned as well as I have when I probably should've just started over.
I agree about the gloves, I just wanted to try them. I didn't have much else better and as this is the first for many things for me, it's the first time I have seen so many different uniques drop that aren't the same crappy uniques you can find in A1-A5.
I did have a question for you though, or anyone for that matter. I watched a video of someone's molten build yesterday and he was using that ancestral support that mimics your skill. It was absolutely filling screens with molten bursts. Is that something we could try on our Ngamahu to get even more fire orbs while we cyclone? I also see you have a Ngamahu 6S unlinked.. I wish I noticed we could do that. I'll drop some jewelers on mine tonight and get it 6 socks. Will probably make a huge difference as well.
I'm really pumped about this character. Really looking forward to seeing how high it can go. I've never pushed maps at all and usually run out of gas around T5.
Oh, sorry for funking rambling (im bored at work again).. but I ran into my first breach in a map, while I was following an abyss. I had to toggle visible loot so I could continue to move around the map and kill stuff. It was beyond amazing. I need to find more breaches. After I look into getting new gloves though. I think I have a few chaos orbs I can shop with.
Last edited by frenzul#4262 on Jan 3, 2018, 9:27:02 AM
