[3.4] LL Classic Summoner - Shaper/Elder/Guardian Farmer

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szasah919843 wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I know my defense and resistance setup is horrible.
I can change.

I dont have problem with my resist cap and energy shield i never die in t10-t11 maps.

My biggest problem only the dmg.
This is why i ask for help.
Poebuild say 60k dps for spectre. No way to improve? Need huge dps boost if i want to do t15 maps shaper. bad clearspeed because i need wait at monsterpack till die.


you lack dps for the same reason you lack survivability: your whole passive tree and therefore aura setup is not as it is supposed to be. you spent skill points on things like pain attunement and life nodes, while not picking up crucial nodes like Elemental Equilibrium and Aura effectiveness.

basically i did a guide saying "if you do this and that you have the dps for shaper", you do something different and say "i can not do shaper, why is that?".^^ i´m not mad or anything, but i feel kinda lost at this. :D

i also just imported your current setup to path of building, and calculating with T16 spectres (lvl 83) you still get to ~237k single target damage per spectre - even with the suboptimal setup. make sure you do not calculate their default attack damage, as they will not use it anway.
Last edited by xxWolf#7174 on Aug 20, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
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xxWolf wrote:
Snip


Yea, "Merveil blessed" also feel slow mostly because the projectile travels super slow, its a safer and slower option wich dont appeal to the "fastfastFAAAAAAAAST" mentallity these days...

Im using this build allmost perfectly exept for the gem setup and i have some questions:
- only reason not to use haste also on generosity is because of the run speed?
- why not move convocation with the increased duration group and desecrate to the other group? this way the heal from convocation lasts a bit longer (not a big deal but its an extra) and desecrate dont have the added mana cost even if 4l, unless i miss something...
- im using arc with CoH atm and works wonders, any good reason to switch to ball lightning? i feel that taking into account the zero travel time of arc counter the slow and hard to aim ball lightning but maybe im missing something else...
- i was thinking that i should try to get some good gloves with dex, ES and some resist and try to get a temp chain on hit corruption on it, its supposed to replace not one but 2 gems (temp chains+CoH) so we can use 2 slots for something else, is this a good idea or im missing something else here too?
- what about the same but with clarity 4 on belt? does it lower our mana (or ES) to much?
- how bad is NOT to use arctic armour? i feel like its not helping much to the build because i shouldnt be hit a lot if at all and the chill effect im pretty sure it dont work on bosses either
- Any reason not to use animate guardian instead of the golem? you can get 15% damage, 18% curse effect, 10% speed and some extra stuff or it is to weak even on life+fortify/empower?
- Also what about replacing one of the flasks for a quartz for strongboxes and/or any for a life one with life for minions (both mostly for high maping i guess)?
Last edited by Maximilian_Edmonton#6917 on Aug 20, 2017, 12:04:30 PM
You're also right about vaal discipline.

I ran vaal haste before and the speed is nice. But you are already killing screens full of monsters stupidly fast even with just the mistress buff and vaal discipline really is an amazing safety net. I didnt know just how strong is that. With mistress of sacrifice and some speed flask im more than fast enough. Any more speed is wasted cause its already more fast than i need quite often you need to pick up stuff. Vaal haste would be wasted quite often while vaal discipline is right there one klick away to save your ass. Only thing missing is a chayula now. With stun immunity and vaal discipline....shit....i think you are basically almost safe from anything with over 8k ES then.

The build really is well rounded.
Last edited by on3da#4033 on Aug 20, 2017, 1:57:24 PM
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xxWolf wrote:

you lack dps for the same reason you lack survivability: your whole passive tree and therefore aura setup is not as it is supposed to be. you spent skill points on things like pain attunement and life nodes, while not picking up crucial nodes like Elemental Equilibrium and Aura effectiveness.

basically i did a guide saying "if you do this and that you have the dps for shaper", you do something different and say "i can not do shaper, why is that?".^^ i´m not mad or anything, but i feel kinda lost at this. :D

i also just imported your current setup to path of building, and calculating with T16 spectres (lvl 83) you still get to ~237k single target damage per spectre - even with the suboptimal setup. make sure you do not calculate their default attack damage, as they will not use it anway.


Ok i made lot of change today by ur pressure. :D
I'm not a millionaire , i cant buy Chayula ..

Now my gear looks better.


I copy lot of things from your passive skill and copy to my tree. Now better but map clearing with fire-eater is painful...
Update: I tried to do Chayula's breach, but it went shit right at the start and failed the timer miseribly

MY ADVICE:
DON'T use ZOMBIES

They will most likely block the path for your Spectre's when passing the small bridges.


Also, i've replaced "Conqueror's Efficiency Crimson Jewel" with Minon damage/ES
I don't see the need of this jewel at all, it's a tiny buff compared to MD/ES.
Last edited by milkingcows#6474 on Aug 20, 2017, 5:13:39 PM
Some things I want to "add":

Why don't you use Zealot's Oath? It works together with the ES Recharge and helps against some small annoying DOT.

Since Basalt Flask is nerfed, I use a Rumi's now. It gives me more phys.-mitigation + the block

And on a personal note, I don't like ball lightning... I use Arc instead. With arc it feels like I don't have to "aim" that much. BUT on any ledlge-like map Ball Lightning should be used hence the longer range.

How much ES do you have after the nerf now ? With a 1-legacy shavs and decent gear I have a bit more than 6k. Which feels very squishy atm.
Last edited by TroughStruggle#3476 on Aug 20, 2017, 7:16:46 PM
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Maximilian_Edmonton wrote:
"
xxWolf wrote:
Snip


Yea, "Merveil blessed" also feel slow mostly because the projectile travels super slow, its a safer and slower option wich dont appeal to the "fastfastFAAAAAAAAST" mentallity these days...

Im using this build allmost perfectly exept for the gem setup and i have some questions:
- only reason not to use haste also on generosity is because of the run speed?
- why not move convocation with the increased duration group and desecrate to the other group? this way the heal from convocation lasts a bit longer (not a big deal but its an extra) and desecrate dont have the added mana cost even if 4l, unless i miss something...
- im using arc with CoH atm and works wonders, any good reason to switch to ball lightning? i feel that taking into account the zero travel time of arc counter the slow and hard to aim ball lightning but maybe im missing something else...
- i was thinking that i should try to get some good gloves with dex, ES and some resist and try to get a temp chain on hit corruption on it, its supposed to replace not one but 2 gems (temp chains+CoH) so we can use 2 slots for something else, is this a good idea or im missing something else here too?
- what about the same but with clarity 4 on belt? does it lower our mana (or ES) to much?
- how bad is NOT to use arctic armour? i feel like its not helping much to the build because i shouldnt be hit a lot if at all and the chill effect im pretty sure it dont work on bosses either
- Any reason not to use animate guardian instead of the golem? you can get 15% damage, 18% curse effect, 10% speed and some extra stuff or it is to weak even on life+fortify/empower?
- Also what about replacing one of the flasks for a quartz for strongboxes and/or any for a life one with life for minions (both mostly for high maping i guess)?


this got too long, so hiding it behind spoiler:
Spoiler
- other reason not to use haste on generosity is because we could not run our aura setup otherwhise. we have to place one of the 50% auras into our prism guardian, but there is no place for a generosity gem. if you put anger into prism guardian and supported haste with generosity, the anger aura would apply to you and make our Elemental Equiblibrium work against us, as our CoH skill no deal fire damage.

- if we put desecrate with the anger - generosity - arctic armour setup, we woul have to get 2Red, 2Green sockets somewhere on our gear, which would be more expensive and difficult than isolating a green socket from for example our gloves, so i decided to set them up that way. and the convocation heal is pretty much a nonfactor anyway - it says 116 per second, that is a joke considering out zombies have 15k+ life.

- ball lightning and arc both are viable choices, if you prefer arc, go with it! the reason i prefer ball lightning is that i have to cast it less often, because it covers a wider area of effect (but yes, it has travel time), it also has better range, which enables me to for example check the edges of the arena in shaper fight for blue orbs, while keeping my spectres at shaper or the monsters he spawns with ball lightning. you also need a high level arc to give it a good "Aoe", a high lvl arc however costs almost double the mana of a lvl 1 ball lughtning, what is a bit uncomfortable in my eyes. As i said, both are viable, but those are the reasons why i prefer ball lightning.

- by using temp chain corruption you would only save 1 gem slot, as you still need the curse on hit to proc the elemental weakness corruption, the corruption on the wand says "grants elemental weakness skill", you still have to use a curse on hit gem to proc that with ball lightning or arc. at the same time you would however loose the ability to swap curses however you like, so you first need to spend a lot of money (or get very lucky with vaal orb) to get very good gloves with that corruption, but now you have issues colouring/linking those gloves and all that for having one more gem slot, which´s colour you can not even change. you also loose the ability to switch curses as you like, for example i like to switch enfeeble for flammability for some fights like shaper or minotaur (once you got used to them and evade their hits), since that way i can kill minotaur before i need to get throuh a single fence and the enfeeble does not do that much for shaper anyways, since he is untargetable during a lot of the attacks and things like his slam are one-shots you have to dodge anyway. if i had infinite money and could just put together my perfect gear i maybe would go for those gloves, but that is nothing you can recommend in a guide to partly new people. "welcome to my guide, for this you need not one, but 2 very specific corruption on your items, so better bring a lvl 8 vorici and a lot of currency!". that´s very demoralizing for new players and what you get from that investment is not even that much, considering you also loose the quality from you second curse. all in all: good idea, but what you get out of it is not worth the investment, at least in my opinion!

- clarity level 4 would reserve 76 mana, we do not even have that much. if we had 2 spare sockets i´d place clarity with blood magic in there, but the corruption on belt is not an option for this - and by having a corrupted implicit on your belt you would loose about 240ES, which wouldn´t even be worth it.

- not using arctic armour would be a mistake in my opinion, physical mitigation is very hard to come by especially with an ES based character, i am very happy we can utilize things like flesh binder ascendancy, chaos golem, basalt flask and arctic armour. dropping arctic armour will not instanly let you die to all physical (or fire) damage, it is afterall just 1 of the many layers of defense we have. when doing this build i tried not to make just an other "get 9k ES + Vaal pact"-build, i put layer upon layer of defense upon each other, removing some of those better be very well justified, and i do not really see a reason to drop arctic armour.

- i tried using animate guardian in the past few leagues and i will probably try it again, but my conclusion from past leagues is he is not worth the time you put into him. he will not die that fast, but there are a few things that can kill him - for example the bleed pillars in uber lab/trials or him derping out of the shield during shaper fight or the pheonix explosion. he adds some nice things, but whenever he dies you will have to buy a new set of items for him, which is not that big of a deal currencywhise (like 5 alchs afterall), but try trading for a 1 alchemy item. and then try trading for five 1 alchemy items. your guardian died? better prepare for 30 minutes of annoying afk/dnd replies, if a reply comes back at all. do not ask me why people even list things for 1 alch, if they are not willing to trade it when they actually get messaged about it, that is a different story.
(i also do not like having to watch that life bar of him, i prefer positioning myself in the fights)

- once you got the flask setup i recommend running and got a vaal discipline you will not have any problems with any strongbox in any map. pop vaal discipline + the flasks and ninja open any strongbox you want. "Detonate dead"? - pfff, 90% fire res. "Ice nova"? - 90% Cold res, easy. "Curse with x curse when opened"? - curse immune. bunch of porcupines spawn and get deleted instantly? 90% all res, ~ 45% phys mitgation (one of the situations which i like arctic armour for) and a bunch of minions who take most of the projectiles. life flasks for minions should not be necessary, your spectres should never die anyway and resummoning a few zombies every once in a while is worth the additional utillity flask if you ask me. if you really wanted to use that animated guardian you could probably go for one of them however, it might save him in some situations.


a lot of things you mentioned (if not all) are definitely viable and mostly come down to personal preferance, so i am not saying these are bad ideas, i am just trying to explain why i decided to take an other route.
Last edited by xxWolf#7174 on Aug 21, 2017, 12:34:50 AM
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szasah919843 wrote:
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xxWolf wrote:

you lack dps for the same reason you lack survivability: your whole passive tree and therefore aura setup is not as it is supposed to be. you spent skill points on things like pain attunement and life nodes, while not picking up crucial nodes like Elemental Equilibrium and Aura effectiveness.

basically i did a guide saying "if you do this and that you have the dps for shaper", you do something different and say "i can not do shaper, why is that?".^^ i´m not mad or anything, but i feel kinda lost at this. :D

i also just imported your current setup to path of building, and calculating with T16 spectres (lvl 83) you still get to ~237k single target damage per spectre - even with the suboptimal setup. make sure you do not calculate their default attack damage, as they will not use it anway.


Ok i made lot of change today by ur pressure. :D
I'm not a millionaire , i cant buy Chayula ..

Now my gear looks better.


I copy lot of things from your passive skill and copy to my tree. Now better but map clearing with fire-eater is painful...


for maps better use flame sentinels, you can find them in the templar laboratory in the Epilogue. flame sentinels are much better for clearing maps. i also recommend getting 4 blue and 2 green sockets on your shavronne´s, for Flame Sentinels link Raise Spectre - Minion Damage - GMP - Spell Echo - Controlled Destruction - Faster Projectiles in it. The same setup goes for fire-eaters, you can switch gmp and faster projectiles out for slower projectiles and pierce when taking down bigger single targets like shaper and guardians.

i never tried to apply pressure on you. :D
Last edited by xxWolf#7174 on Aug 21, 2017, 12:43:31 AM
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milkingcows wrote:
Update: I tried to do Chayula's breach, but it went shit right at the start and failed the timer miseribly

MY ADVICE:
DON'T use ZOMBIES

They will most likely block the path for your Spectre's when passing the small bridges.


Also, i've replaced "Conqueror's Efficiency Crimson Jewel" with Minon damage/ES
I don't see the need of this jewel at all, it's a tiny buff compared to MD/ES.


i did not do many chayula breaches yet (none in harbinger so far) as it takes a lot fo time to collect 100 splinters. however when i did chayula breach previously i used fire-eaters and had not much of a problem, just make sure to kill the rare mobs, convocate your minions into their face for that. did not try it without zombies, so i can not tell if that makes it easier.

if you do not run conquerer´s efficiency you can not run your aura setup and still cast desecrate/ball lightning/offering, you actually can not run your full setup at all, because you linked arctic armour to increased duration which increases it´s mana cost. :/
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TroughStruggle wrote:
Some things I want to "add":

Why don't you use Zealot's Oath? It works together with the ES Recharge and helps against some small annoying DOT.

Since Basalt Flask is nerfed, I use a Rumi's now. It gives me more phys.-mitigation + the block

And on a personal note, I don't like ball lightning... I use Arc instead. With arc it feels like I don't have to "aim" that much. BUT on any ledlge-like map Ball Lightning should be used hence the longer range.

How much ES do you have after the nerf now ? With a 1-legacy shavs and decent gear I have a bit more than 6k. Which feels very squishy atm.


Zealot´s Oath would give us close to no regen, it actually would be 1%, which is not worth spending a skill point.

Basalt got nerfed, but "nerfed" does not mean it has to be bad now. it was absolutely broken before and probably still is. rumi´s (or granite flasks in general) give a really nice tooltip mitigation, but due to how armour scales (the bigger the hit, the less effective gets armour), that tooltip is an illusion, that mitigation will not work when you need it the most. the block chance is nice of course, but i prefer a nice flat mitigation flask over chance based defense, and you can add a ultility mod to basalt (like movement speed).

as stated earlier, using arc or ball lightning comes down to personal prefereance, if you like arc more, go with it!

in harbinger i currently have about 6.8k ES (without any legacy gear), which, combined with the other layers of defense, feels pretty good to me, doing T15+ content without feeling harmed. of course i have to play carefully in those vulnerabilty, crit, inc monster damage core maps, but i doubt any build does not.

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