[3.4] LL Classic Summoner - Shaper/Elder/Guardian Farmer

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xxWolf wrote:

Thanks for your feedback and i am glad you like the build! :)


the reason why i do not mention the block chance/evasion rating we have very often (or at all) is, that i really hate unreliable defense. unreliable damage can be annoying, but can be fine if it is high enough on average (everyone who tried using zombies as primary dps source probably knows what i´m talking about), but unreliable defense? in my opinion defense has to work when i need it. i also use bone offering for guardians and shaper, because it makes the minions much more durable on average, which is fine for them, because even if the block fails multiple times once every 100 shaper runs and a spectre dies, that is not a big deal, but for my character dying every 100 maps because of rng is really annoying. if i die to twinned core malachai with turbo/inc aoe/crit/vulnerability - my bad, should not have run that map. but if i die to a blue pack because i relied on my block chance and it did not work? that would piss me off.

on paper it is a very good defense, i just do not like chances when we are talking about defense, but that is ofc just my opinion.

Hi there!

Glad, that you're glad ^^
I'd like to share my opinions with You, since i'm experienced player, but for sure, not an expert in summoning part :)

One of the reasons of not going for large ES pool this league was coming 3.0 patch. I've got roughly 6,3k ES, which after 3.0 hit, will be only available for chars with very, very good items. So in my opinion, i need more layers of defence in post-3.0 reality, rather than having one large ES pool, which, for now, is the best choice.
And my testings/playing proves that block is viable mechanic, especially paired with evasion. 75% block, and almost 50% spell block (with good jewels, can be 50%) paired with 30-50% eva, adds good layer of defence for the build. Since this build, after 3.0 changes, won't be 1-shot proof anymore, block is the best option(imo). I'm also curious how to fit vaal grace in :) 75/50 block, 30-50% eva + 34/34 dodge + vaal discipline + AA + phys reduction around 30%, and 6k ES pool + 11 meatshields = for me sounds like 5s of immortality ^^ (unless your flasks and buffs worn)

But getting to the point: i see necessary in post3.0 to rely on unreliable sources of defence, cause we do not have (beside big ES pool) any real defence mechanic - and relying on our meatshield is not an option as we already know.

Cheers!

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Scaal wrote:

I do agree with you with helmet enchant, convocation cooldown is the boss, although '150% inc golem buff' is also very good. I wasn't pointing out the best, just mentioning those which are kind of useful for this build.
About boots: 1stly - totally forgot about MS enchant! It's really good, very useful, but about penetration: it is confirmed to work with totems[and there is no word 'totem' in this enchant], so why not with minions? We should investigate it further, cause this one matter should be clear. If i'm correct, then our spectres gain 10% ele pen, which is kind of multiplier and then this enchant will be quite good.

if it does not say "minion", it does not work for minions. totems are a different story, for example fire damage or cast speed nodes work for flame totem, attack speed nodes work for ancestral warchief, even if the node does not explicitly say "totem". without that there would probably not be enough totem nodes on the tree to scale them. try scaling the flame sentinels by taking fire damage nodes. will not work. or scaling zombie attack speed with attack speed nodes. won´t work either. would also make some of the minion nodes pretty much pointless.

Neither passive skills nor stats from the player's equipment affect minions unless they specifically state "Minions _____".
- from the wiki.

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Scaal wrote:

Hi there!

Glad, that you're glad ^^
I'd like to share my opinions with You, since i'm experienced player, but for sure, not an expert in summoning part :)

One of the reasons of not going for large ES pool this league was coming 3.0 patch. I've got roughly 6,3k ES, which after 3.0 hit, will be only available for chars with very, very good items. So in my opinion, i need more layers of defence in post-3.0 reality, rather than having one large ES pool, which, for now, is the best choice.
And my testings/playing proves that block is viable mechanic, especially paired with evasion. 75% block, and almost 50% spell block (with good jewels, can be 50%) paired with 30-50% eva, adds good layer of defence for the build. Since this build, after 3.0 changes, won't be 1-shot proof anymore, block is the best option(imo). I'm also curious how to fit vaal grace in :) 75/50 block, 30-50% eva + 34/34 dodge + vaal discipline + AA + phys reduction around 30%, and 6k ES pool + 11 meatshields = for me sounds like 5s of immortality ^^ (unless your flasks and buffs worn)

But getting to the point: i see necessary in post3.0 to rely on unreliable sources of defence, cause we do not have (beside big ES pool) any real defence mechanic - and relying on our meatshield is not an option as we already know.

Cheers!

i am not that sure about that 6.3k ES number, for one energy shield gear will drop in price, probably making that very good gear affordable, and 2nd we might make some changes to the passive tree to get a few more ES nodes here or there. i will not come up with a number at this point, i think it is pointless to calculate ES number when there still can (and probably will) be changes to the currently planned ES nerfs and we do not know how good gear we will be able to afford on a reasonable budget, before we actually see how the prices for ES gear turn out.

also about the one shots. what one shots you currently? for me it is things like shaper slam, core malachai slam (with dmg mods), hydra fork shot with too many damage mods, minotaur burrow attack if hit multiple times, charged up phoenix explosion or an uber atziri flameblast. i can not remember getting one-shot by anything else than one of those (or a similar boss mechanic)
now the thing is: you are supposed to be killed by those things. the point is that you need to dodge them and i actually like that part. i can see why someone finds it funny being able to facetank shaper beam with his 20k es pool and absurd leech, but at least for me that is not enjoyable in the long run. i want to actually play the game. everything else gets covered by our (reliable) defenses, if we do not play carelessly - even volatiles. the explosion always deals 50% elemental damage, so our resists prevent us from dying to them. even bearers can be handled if you hit your flasks in time and walk away so you do not get hit by ALL of them (which you also would survive most of the time, but staying in there is what i mean with "careless").

the meatshield imo is very reliable if you do not run ahead. rolled a crazy T15+ map with 3 damage mods and vulnerability? tell your minions what to attack by using ball lightning instead of running into a pack and convocating.


i just noticed i digressed a bit, so to say what i actually want to say on the topic:
there are not many things, that hit you for an amount that does not kill you now (with like 8k ES) but will kill you with 6.3k ES (still i do not think that number is what it will end up being, but lets just pretend). things either do THAT much damage they would still one shot you if you had 10k ES or they do not harm you much at all - even the "regular" heavy hitters hit for like 3-4k at most. there is not much between the 4k and the 15k hit, if you know what i mean. the total ES pool is only important when it comes to oneshots, when it comes to sustain things like recharge and meatshield become far more important. so if the reduced ES number does not mean any additional one shot threats to us, it is not that big of a deal - especially when recharge gets buffed at the same time.
i agree things like block and evade/dodge are a very good defense - on average. it is just personal preference, if i can make my character able to survive anything that is not 100% supposed to one shot anyone by using "safe" defensive mechanics, like resistances or vaal discipline, i will go that route. and i will do what i can to prevent me from relying on chances when it comes to my survivability, even in 3.0.

@xxWolf:

Ha, that's kind of a discussion i like the most :) I'm really glad for continously confronting my ideas - many players have opportunity to learn from you posts :)

About minions - thanks to clarify things, thought that minions benefit more from us, like totems.

Now, to the point: to the list of one-shotters i will add: essence monsters with volatiles, double extra dmg mod heavy pack of magic porcupines(if you are not behind meatshields), also Overgrown Ruin with burning ground paired with flame bearers(not mentioning 100% inc aoe mod) - sometimes it's impossible to see them in time. Most of things you've mentioned are meant to be dodged manually. What i'm saying, and trying to point out: high block + eva gives you percentage, of course, but always, a chance to have a "2nd chance". I wasn't implying that block + eva is better than ES, i'm saying only that without having any kind of leech, and recharge, while is good, is not instant, block+eva adds a very good additional layer of defence. That was my point of view since my first post in your thread. And for sure will stick to this in 3.0.

2nd. My calculations about ES pool in 3.0 are based on actual facts from GGG. I'm not saying it's final, but we probably know, that nerf hammer will struck with ES pool lower at least 20% than nowadays. It's only my opinion, but i like to opt in that direction. Considering fact, that we don't have many gear pieces for improving ES pool, this leaves me with current thoughts. But, will see what GGG gives us in future.

3rd. Having large ES pool with additional block and eva allows me for more aggresive playstyle, and gives more room for mistakes. Most of my deaths was either from: seeing too late sth that will definitely kill me or acting to slow to dodge it. And that's why i prefer as many as possible additional defences, even percentage based, than sure, but only 1. I'd like to mention that some skills will pierce our meatshields, leaving us to full blowns. That's the reason, why sometimes(which can lead to percentage based ;) ) they are not defence at all.

Cheers!

PS Playing life-based chars with dodge/eva for almost a year, just makes me used to that kind of defence and playstyle :)

@Scaal

I also enjoy discussions like this one, always happy when there is someone i can have one with. :)

About Porcupines: Whenever i see them i instantly piano flasks and hit vaal discipline, then i hit convocation so the minions absorb most of the damage and deal with the pack during vaal discipline. should convocation not be ready that means i either ran ahead, which means my spectres are not here yet to kill the porcupines or i recently convocated meaning my meathsield will absorb most of the spikes. additionally most of the extra damage mods are added damage as fire/cold/lightning, so most of it gets denied by my resists.
That way i never had problems dealing with them, and even tho the total es pool will be lower in 3.0, the recharge will be faster, which mean vaal discpline gets even more usefull in that kind of scenario. but i agree in the case of porcupines evasion and block is very reliable, since they fire a lot of spikes making it near impossible that evasion/block fails every time.

about the burning ground: i never thought about this honestly, i always roll over burning ground, since it kills my fps and therefore the fun. from what i read/hear a lot of people (including streamers like Ziz) "handle" this the same way. If you run them i agree that can be rippy, but if you know about that problem having an eye on blue packs or going a bit slower might solve the problem. yes, that way you can not "fly" through the map, but most people only stutter through burning ground maps anyway.

regarding the essence monster: i never saw them as a problem, because they are very predictable, since, well, you have to click them three times before they attack you. i never had any problems with them, just hitting my flasks + vaal discipline before i open them and its fine. even a volatile explosion with damage mods is not that scary with 90%+ resists and about 40% phys mitigation. the only annoying thing about them (at least for me) is the lag that occurs when they die and spawn new monsters like the big golem or the 2 zombies. annoying, but not deadly.



i have a few things in mind how to improve ES pool, like picking up more es nodes or fitting in a 2nd pariah ring. we also do not know if and how hard things like crystal belts or presence of chayula will get nerfed. additionally our boots (Bones of Ullr) might actually get a buff since they said "Lower bases" will get higher values so it is easier to get started as an ES based character. and a thing you should definitely not forget: if the meta shifts towards life builds (which will probably happen since they still have vaal pact) ES gear will get a lot cheaper, so even near "GG-Gear" might become affordable. the overall ES value might still be lower than what we currently get, but we will be able to get pieces much higher on the new ES scala, which will dampen the nerf.


about attacks/spells that can pierce our meatshield:
lets take knitted horrors (the big things in dried lake) as an example. if there are many of them they will of course still pierce the meathsield, but they will still target it. so unless they, me and my meatshield stand in a perfect line (and the risk of THAT happening i am willing to take), most of their attacks will still miss me, making the meatshield reliable even against this type of monster.
the only exeption to this that comes to my mind is that one rogue exile that attacks with lightning arrow, since he fires multiple arrows and the aoe explosion will trigger at our minions and then hit us, but thankfully half of the damage is lightning and will be absorbed by resistances. i underestimated that guy/girl when i met him/her for the first time, but since then i always instantly hit my topaz + vaal discipline and was fine.


I know i am repeating myself at this, but still:
I have no problem with having chance based defense as an additional layer, but if parts of my "safe" defense get taken away, i will look for ways to replace it with something reliable. once that is done i will see where i can fit in some additional layers like evasion or block.

Question how would you go about leveling up to this build. how did you level? at what point did you switch. a leveling tree would be awesome.

Yo i have been following your build and i did my first T15 map with this and its amazing. However i was wondering what are your thoughts on united in dream versus midnight bargain? Which one do you think is better. Also should i switch my united in dream from midnight bargain or should i just keep it on?

Hi again!

Finally fot some spare time to post here :)

@xxWolf:
I see your point in sticking to the most reliable defence, and for sure it does its job in guardians/shaper, where one bad roll means portal&exp lost. And here comes the diffrence in our playstyle - i'm mostly runneing prophcies&red maps t11-15 - and there i need mobility over tankiness, so i'm sticking to eva+block, at the cost of having only ~80% max res and lower ES pool, but gaining a lot more flexibility in not so rippy places/maps :)

About the meta shifting - will see how quickly it will eventually change towards life, but i'm not so optimistic in this topic as you are :) Will see during beta how's it going, and what can we expect in the future.

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additionally most of the extra damage mods are added damage as fire/cold/lightning, so most of it gets denied by my resists.

Here definetely you are the winner :)

As far as i remember i never rerolled a map because of burning/shocking/chilled ground, but in fact, they raise rippyness of a map, sometimes even a lot.
And as a side note: I wouldn't suggest switching Presence/Eye of Chayula for Bisco's as i did, although i don't mind getting killed from time to time at the cost of major improve to drops :)

Honestly, looking forward for some more (un)expected QoL improvements to spectre summoning mechanics, but will see what GGG will give us.

Cheers!

I bought Pariah ring, but would lose about 100-200 ES, im sitting around 6k ES currently... is the +2 to skill level worth losing the ES?
Thanks

No, its not worth losing the ES, but is the socket on your Pariah blue?