@GGG - Could someone explain why Mjolner is having its cooldown increased? [new 2.6 changes :P]

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Antnee wrote:

You can say that all you want. It does not make it true. The single gamebreaking build involving Mjolnir uses *discharge*, not Arc. [..]

Can you show me this gamebreaking 2.4 league build please?

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Antnee wrote:

No, sorry, the trigger/discharge relationship needs to die a painful, swift death. It's needed to die for a long time. It's the singular reason for Mjolnir to have had such a massive nerf[...]

I dont know but from what Qarl says the nerf didnt target discharge but triggering stuff in general for performance reasons.

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Qarl wrote:

The cooldown changes were primarily driven by performance concerns. The change intended was vs the rate of hitting. It was not aimed at Discharge.

I'd be happy if Mjölner getting changed around to be strong again.

That being said it doesnt have to be a discharge weapon (if every other weapon CoC/ Cospris/CWC gets the same treatment).

What i personally would like to see is being able to tank stuff again with mjölner as it was the case since the release of mjölner it never was that insane for clearing maps at high speeds but it was nice for tanking stuff. Technically i could make a Bladeflurry CI Tank or Bladevortex could workout too but i find the current meta so disgusting that i rather take a small break from playing poe.

even if they buff the lighning skills or Mjöner too be used with those skills. then it must be woth using it in a Mjöner and lets say they make it for Arc. Then it should be stronger then selfcast and there where the problem starts again. It dosent matter which skill is used all will cry and call for a nerf. They will say ohh no mana cost no cast speed and blabla and forget that you need 400str and 300in. As long there are crybabys that write more in the Forum or Reedit then playing the game (like in D3), this game will turn too a new D3 wit 8 build per char.

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even if they buff the lighning skills or Mjöner too be used with those skills. then it must be woth using it in a Mjöner and lets say they make it for Arc. Then it should be stronger then selfcast and there where the problem starts again.

No, no and no. It shouldn't be stronger than self cast. You should be able to play self cast arc or mjölnir, both builds should have a similar powerlevel. Of course Mjölnir is a T1 unique, but an Arc build using Void Battery shouldn't be weaker than any Mjölnir build just because one uses Mjölnir as its T1 unique.

And for CwC this works pretty good, it is basically indifferent from self casting. You get a high cast speed without investing into cast speed, which frees up passivs and gear options while at the same time you lose one support, because you have to place the triggering skill somewhere.

If you use a slow skill and use some synergies in your trigger nicely you can make fine builds. A Scorching Ray + Firestorm CwC isn't much different in power than self cast firestorm. And that is good. And Mjölnir shouldn't be any more powerful than selfcasting the skill. Of course Mjölnir should be better than self casting with some random low level gear, because it is a T1 unique, but then again if you use another T1 unique in your self cast setup it is pretty clear that you should have the same powerlevel.

So it is pretty clear that lightning skills right now aren't really cutting it in general and neither while being used in Mjölnir. However if you buff them in Mjölnir without buffing discharge you have to be very specific, which again would only make very specific setups possible. So nerfing discharge is a lot better to open up buffs on mjölnir in general.

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Qarl wrote:

The cooldown changes were primarily driven by performance concerns. The change intended was vs the rate of hitting. It was not aimed at Discharge.

We realise these uniques are not in the right place after these changes were made. The balance team (a combination of specific designers and QA) was under a reasonable pressure to pick a right answer for 2.5.0 in a short period of time. (For those looking to blame someone, feel free to assign it to me for putting undue time constraints on the balance team.)

From here, we may make changes to these uniques in upcoming leagues, or changes related to the mechanics around them. I am not sure exactly when this will occur but it's likely to be in the first half of 2017.

However, rebalancing every unique that is associated with a specific build is not something we want to do every three months. While we do make sufficient assessments ahead of time, we can't fully assess what a league's meta-game will look like. (And if we could it would likely mean we haven't made the game interesting enough.) Some item-centric builds will wax and wane with other changes. In some cases we may make the wrong call on changes to specific items.

We will not be making any changes to these cooldowns or related values within Breach league.

For Discharge specifically, we'd most like to see its primary use as a self-cast skill. We likely won't make any changes in this direction until 3.0.0.

I urge you to reconsider. CoC discharge, mjolner discharge, and cospri discharge are some of the most fun builds ever created in the game. They are also extremely expensive to gear. Self cast discharge is just too slow and not very exciting to play.

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TheAshmaker wrote:

I urge you to reconsider. CoC discharge, mjolner discharge, and cospri discharge are some of the most fun builds ever created in the game. They are also extremely expensive to gear. Self cast discharge is just too slow and not very exciting to play.

I agree most people hating discharge trigger stuff dont consider that it can go well over 200+ exalted cost to work out properly. At this point the complainers might aswell complain about mirror weapons exsist in standard. It definately was the most fun build to play in poe and i have tried a lot of builds. The thing i disliked was when cospris malice was introduced as a straight out powercreep compared to mjölner.

However i hope that when GGG reworks those items they consider the bigger picture.

when you think that CwC is as strong as selfcast go on. I have tryed CwC with icestorm without changing the skilltree. But you should try the builds befor you start talking about it. but i am not here to discuss this. You have your point.

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ChosenWarrior wrote:

when you think that CwC is as strong as selfcast go on. I have tryed CwC with icestorm without changing the skilltree. But you should try the builds befor you start talking about it. but i am not here to discuss this. You have your point.

If you use CwC you should change the tree O.o That is the whole point of doing that.

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I agree most people hating discharge trigger stuff dont consider that it can go well over 200+ exalted cost to work out properly.

But that is the whole thing. When was the last time you could just pick up Mjölnir and enjoy shooting Arcs on Hit. Essentially never, this playstyle always was bad after they nerf the proc rate for the first time. You could do some fun things with Taming and Emberwake and Moltenstrike, but that again required very specific items and if you stack a few hundred ignites on something for 2k+% increased damage pretty much anything works.

So the only thing why Mjölnir worked so long was because it allowed triggering Discharge. And the question is, why should it be less fun to trigger Arcs, Storm Calls or whatever if you actually feel the impact of those skills because they are doing something. The reason why discharge felt good was because it worked, those other things felt bad because they didn't work. If they would work they would be fun too. CoC without Discharge was pretty fun too, but after a few nerfs pretty much only discharge coc was really powerful. And the same goes for Malice, the unnerfed malice was fun with cold spells, the new one is only usable with discharge and might still be a bit too powerful.

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Emphasy wrote:

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ChosenWarrior wrote:

when you think that CwC is as strong as selfcast go on. I have tryed CwC with icestorm without changing the skilltree. But you should try the builds befor you start talking about it. but i am not here to discuss this. You have your point.

If you use CwC you should change the tree O.o That is the whole point of doing that.

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I agree most people hating discharge trigger stuff dont consider that it can go well over 200+ exalted cost to work out properly.

But that is the whole thing. When was the last time you could just pick up Mjölnir and enjoy shooting Arcs on Hit. Essentially never, this playstyle always was bad after they nerf the proc rate for the first time. You could do some fun things with Taming and Emberwake and Moltenstrike, but that again required very specific items and if you stack a few hundred ignites on something for 2k+% increased damage pretty much anything works.

So the only thing why Mjölnir worked so long was because it allowed triggering Discharge. And the question is, why should it be less fun to trigger Arcs, Storm Calls or whatever if you actually feel the impact of those skills because they are doing something. The reason why discharge felt good was because it worked, those other things felt bad because they didn't work. If they would work they would be fun too. CoC without Discharge was pretty fun too, but after a few nerfs pretty much only discharge coc was really powerful. And the same goes for Malice, the unnerfed malice was fun with cold spells, the new one is only usable with discharge and might still be a bit too powerful.

But thats the thing though...they could easily release another unique that made arc more powerful and could synergize with mjolner as well...discharge was fun and yes it was better than using arc...but there are other ways to make the lightning skills better than just constantly nerfing fun stuff.

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TheAshmaker wrote:

But thats the thing though...they could easily release another unique that made arc more powerful and could synergize with mjolner as well...discharge was fun and yes it was better than using arc...but there are other ways to make the lightning skills better than just constantly nerfing fun stuff.

Exactly the point Im trying to make here. I posted examples of some fun stuff other than Discharge nerfed hard in the past recent years. Thats not the way to do it.

Btw to some Mjolner-Discharge attackers: there were very strong builds using Mjolner-spark or dual mjolner-arc in the past. So argument that you cannot do Mjolner effectively with other lightning spells is true - that was nerfed as well.

More than that Lightning strike + Mjolner + Arc was one of the most effective skill combo for pack clearing even in 2.4 Discharge was there mainly for bosses as most mobs were outside its range. So it was not Mjolner + Discharge. It was Mjolner + Arc + Discharge where Arc had very important tasks: pack clearing, charge generation and shocking.

You're an idiot.

@Qarl

k we done here. Prefix/Suffix updates on Rare items pls.

+Melee level of gems isn't useful for any build ever made.

Shields don't have Global Defense thus not used

Max ES rolls are too high compared to T1 life.

Rings and amulets are offensive items for ES builds but are capped on T1 life at a much lower value when rings/amulets are DEFENSIVE items for life builds.

Blood Magic doesn't provide 15% MORE life when it would be an equal compensation compared to Ci.