Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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Sure_K4y wrote:

That is somewhat accurate. One thing people forget is that melee builds are depending on successfully hitting things, casters don't have to worry about accuracy at all. And I would agree that melee and casters need to be more on par. However, if there's only one melee-skill that can keep up with top-tier casters (which are powerful to a questionable degree), then nothing has been "fixed". What's worse is that introducing one skill that is able to keep up means that everybody who wants to play melee has to pick Flurry, which is a problem for the overall build diversity, or what little there's left of it.

In all honesty, I can see where you're coming from, but the "fight fire with fire" approach isn't doing anybody any good in the long run. And I think you agree with me in that respect. Defending an overpowered melee skill, by saying it isn't OP, just to ensure that the melee-archetypes have one straw to hold on to doesn't help melee as a whole, and it doesn't change the things that are wrong this game at this point in time.

OK, I actually do agree with you in that respect. Except the problem with what you're saying is that we all know helping melee as a whole is never going to happen.

That fact of the matter is that, as long people keep on fighting about this one new skill instead of holding GGG accountable, nothing will change anytime soon. Why? Because not only will GGG get a faulty base of informations and opinions, this community will also fail to deliver the required numerical pressure, to make an urgent issue seem urgent. The thought process is: "Why buff/nerf skill X if people still argue wether or not it's OP/UP."

This is why the "nerf-naysayers-out-of-principle" never actually get what they want, and need to move from one straw to the next.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

If GGG said "ok, we're fixing melee next update, melee is now tankier and does more damage out of the box and scales a little bit slower once you've got your endgame gear, to bring it in line with spells, and simultaneously we are nerfing EQ and BF" I'd be ok with that. But that isn't what's going to happen.

Melee needs a general overhaul, buffing just by way of numbers isn't necessarily going to do much, but it would be a nice band-aid for as long as it takes to polish melee as a whole. I think people would be OK with this. However, I heard some statement from GGG that they're not going to make too many balance adustments to melee skills prior to the overhaul to prevent blurring the lines. Eventhough in some circumstances there may be some merit to that, I think it's a pretentious statement at best, because numbers can always be restored willy-nilly. GGG wants to take the easy way out, because we're too busy arguing with each other instead of pushing for change.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

What's going to happen is, melee is going to stay the way it is now regardless of whether BF gets nerfed or not. So leave BF the fuck alone and let people ACTUALLY have a useable fucking melee skill for once, to go along with the goddamn truckload of useable spells.

If GGG fixes melee? Then fantastic, nerf the shit out of BF. Until then, leave it the fuck alone.

You know I don't like that approach, but who cares, right? ;-)

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Sure_K4y wrote:

That fact of the matter is that, as long people keep on fighting about this one new skill instead of holding GGG accountable, nothing will change anytime soon. Why? Because not only will GGG get a faulty base of informations and opinions, this community will also fail to deliver the required numerical pressure, to make an urgent issue seem urgent. The thought process is: "Why buff/nerf skill X if people still argue wether or not it's OP/UP."

This is why the "nerf-naysayers-out-of-principle" never actually get what they want, and need to move from one straw to the next.

Melee needs a general overhaul, buffing just by way of numbers isn't necessarily going to do much, but it would be a nice band-aid for as long as it takes to polish melee as a whole. I think people would be OK with this. However, I heard some statement from GGG that they're not going to make too many balance adustments to melee skills prior to the overhaul to prevent blurring the lines. Eventhough in some circumstances there may be some merit to that, I think it's a pretentious statement at best, because numbers can always be restored willy-nilly. GGG wants to take the easy way out, because we're too busy arguing with each other instead of pushing for change.

People have been making threads almost daily about how bad melee is for the last 3 or 4 leagues. There's almost as many melee threads as there are lab threads or map drop/trading threads. You're presenting the idea that people haven't told GGG melee is shit, they have and GGG isn't doing anything about it.

As for the melee overhaul, I just told you it's never going to happen. You already KNEW it's never going to happen. This excuse GGG gives that they are "waiting for an overhaul" to fix melee gems, is a scam. It's a distraction to keep the melee guys quiet because they know that's the only way to even keep any of them playing.

There's no point arguing over things that aren't going to happen. Leave BF alone.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

People have been making threads almost daily about how bad melee is for the last 3 or 4 leagues. There's almost as many melee threads as there are lab threads or map drop/trading threads. You're presenting the idea that people haven't told GGG melee is shit, they have and GGG isn't doing anything about it.

Moreover, this "melee overhaul" you're referring, to, again, is never going to happen. There's no point arguing over something that isn't happening.

The simple truth is that GGG is out of touch with their own product. The EQ nerf, for example was utterly stupid.

GGG changed lab as much as it changed melee, if you understand what I'm saying here.

Like I said, their approach in regards to this overhaul seems pretentious at best.

Let's assume Blade Flurry stays as is.

GGG then has to fix the rest of the melee skills.

Let's be charitable and assume GGG can, and does, fix namelocking, even though all evidence is to the contrary.

Given that assumption, then the fix can be done through numerical changes to the skills themselves and the support gems.

I believe that melee skills should be doing 4 to 5 times more damage than they currently do. I'm not talking about the skills with the tag "melee" but skills that require you to actually be near something and hit them with your weapon.

For example, Double Strike, let's give it 200 to 300% base attack damage as it levels from 1 to 20. The current batch of playable 'melee' skills have an effective base damage between 200 and 411% (Blade Flurry) already, and they don't need to give up a support for their massive AoE abilities. So Double Strike with 300% and attacking twice seems reasonable. Compare this Double Strike with Melee Splash (2 hits at 300% = 600% x 74% for Melee Splash) 444% to Earthquake with Conc Effect (272% x 159%) 432% or Blade Flurry with Conc Effect (411% x 159%) 653%, and it looks very reasonable.

Do the same for all of them. Heavy Strike 200 to 400%, etc.

I would then rework all the support gems for melee attacks. Let's bring in a new Tag: 'Single-Target' (GGG already uses the term like a tag).

Melee Phys becomes:

"

(45-74)% more Melee Physical damage with Single-Target Melee attacks

(30-49)% more Melee Physical damage with other Melee attacks

Give Melee Damage on Full Life the same treatment.

Melee Splash can stay the same, but make it clear that support skills keep their 'Single-Target' tag. This allows for those skills to gain the increased benefits off other supports, and would even allow for double dipping with Slayer's Impact Ascendancy notable, etc.

Fortify becomes:

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25% more Melee Damage

(0-19)% increased effect of Fortify on you

Thats the sort of changes that need to be made in order to render the old skills worthwhile. It will take a comprehensive overhaul. But aside from fixing namelocking, we are just talking about changing numbers for the most part.

The biggest problem is simply that 90% of the melee skills, and all of the single target melee skills, simply don't do enough damage to justify the time it takes to attack with them. Give them a huge boost, and they will become useable again.

Now to get really crazy, I am going to suggest introducing a new support gem "Close Distance." This support, combined with removing namelocking will solve all the quality of life issues related to single target attacks, once their damage is reasonably brought in line.

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Tags: Attack, Movement, Melee

Mana multiplier: 120%

Supported Melee skills are channelled

Charges to a nearby monster and attacks with the supported Melee Skill while channeling

Enemies encountered in your path stop your movement and are attacked instead

Increases and reductions to attack speed apply to movement speed at 50% while channelling this Skill

(1-5)% more damage with Single-Target Melee attacks and (1-5)% increased movement speed for each stage

In keeping with GG's hidden info about stages, you gain a stage with each attack you make and you can gain up to 10 stages. You lose all stages if you haven't recently killed an enemy.

Now, with this support, we turn every melee skill into a combination of Shield Charge and Flicker Strike. Hold down the cursor, run from enemy to enemy attacking until it's killed, then run to the next one.

Would it be useful for the non-melee 'melee' attacks? Maybe. But do you really want to have to run right next to to your next target with Reave or Sunder or Lightning Strike, etc.? Probably not.

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RickyDMMont2ya wrote:

Now, with this support, we turn every melee skill into a combination of Shield Charge and Flicker Strike. Hold down the cursor, run from enemy to enemy attacking until it's killed, then run to the next one.

Would it be useful for the non-melee 'melee' attacks? Maybe. But do you really want to have to run right next to to your next target with Reave or Sunder or Lightning Strike, etc.? Probably not.

TBH I have always felt like melee needed better mobility than ranged/caster builds by default. This is to keep them up to par with other gems that attack from a distance. This would be a pretty good change I think.

Unfortunately GGG won't be doing this any time soon so.

Even Flicker Strike has better clear speed and targetting.

Blade Flurry's targetting is kind of off and not better DPU than most FS builds.

So FS, BV, EQ, Cyclone, Reave and now throw in BF as top tier 'melee' skills. BF is not clearly better than any of those skills.

This is classic overhype and overreaction to a good melee skill that GGG rarely decides to make.

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Dark_Chicken wrote:

Even Flicker Strike has better clear speed and targetting.

Blade Flurry's targetting is kind of off and not better DPU than most FS builds.

So FS, BV, EQ, Cyclone, Reave and now throw in BF as top tier 'melee' skills. BF is not clearly better than any of those skills.

This is classic overhype and overreaction to a good melee skill that GGG rarely decides to make.

See that's the thing people aren't getting. "Blade flurry is too good needs nerf nao zomg"

Meanwhile I'm still planning to use flicker strike next league because it will still be better than BF. So will vaal spark, vaal fireball, probably BV still, and just about every bow build/actual ranged skill in POE generally.

IDK, I'll mess with it some more tonight since I'm bored but I doubt this skill will get any better than those builds.

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RickyDMMont2ya wrote:

Now to get really crazy, I am going to suggest introducing a new support gem "Close Distance." This support, combined with removing namelocking will solve all the quality of life issues related to single target attacks, once their damage is reasonably brought in line.

"

Tags: Attack, Movement, Melee

Mana multiplier: 120%

Supported Melee skills are channelled

Charges to a nearby monster and attacks with the supported Melee Skill while channeling

Enemies encountered in your path stop your movement and are attacked instead

Increases and reductions to attack speed apply to movement speed at 50% while channelling this Skill

(1-5)% more damage with Single-Target Melee attacks and (1-5)% increased movement speed for each stage

In keeping with GG's hidden info about stages, you gain a stage with each attack you make and you can gain up to 10 stages. You lose all stages if you haven't recently killed an enemy.

Now, with this support, we turn every melee skill into a combination of Shield Charge and Flicker Strike. Hold down the cursor, run from enemy to enemy attacking until it's killed, then run to the next one.

Would it be useful for the non-melee 'melee' attacks? Maybe. But do you really want to have to run right next to to your next target with Reave or Sunder or Lightning Strike, etc.? Probably not.

That sounds really fun. It would end up feeling similar to (most) melee skills in D2, and that is a GOOD thing.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

That sounds really fun. It would end up feeling similar to (most) melee skills in D2, and that is a GOOD thing.

Ya I actually really liked that suggestion, I hope GGG takes note of that one. Really this is how melee should work anyways.

Maybe just remove all weapons and skills and kill stuff with your bare fists.

Goddamn fucking nerf brigade.
They are just not happy unless they are making trouble.

Now they are really stepping up their pressure. We haven't even got the results of their last wave crying and blabbering yet (bv, es, instant leech, legacy flasks hmm I am sure there is more) and they are already trying to trash a new skill that's been out 2 fucking days.

When will you all be happy, when you are the last few people left playing the game ?