Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee
" when was the last time you played melee? (or if BFlurry is dogshit, does that make Lacerate wormshit, Reave slugshit, and Heavy Strike literal toxic waste?) Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/
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reave is a better skill. Yes lacerate feels pretty shit, heavy strike... lol
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" Pre-nerf Blade Flurry Level 2 0% significantly outperformed my Reave Level 20/20% at both crowd-clear and single-target. Do most people use Vaal Reave to build Reave stacks or something? Is that why Reave is considered good? Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/
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"whats my agenda then ? go ahead, say it. I can clearly see yours, but whats mine ? am I out to get some random melee skill because its 'melee' ? lol what preposterous bullshit. I dont operate in these terms. Im a simple man- I see op, I call it out. theres no agenda whatsoever. I called out flameblast (and all ignite double dip bullshit), incinerate, cyclone, poison, crit, instant leech and any and all mechanic in the game that helps put shit above others. EVERY. FUCKING. ONE. OF. THEM. theres also no agenda to mark of the doubting knight making bf comfortably clear breaches into maps and costing 1c. Last edited by grepman#2451 on Dec 7, 2016, 5:34:24 AM
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"snorkle, running into a thread and saying skill x > y with zero reasoning, is akin to running into a room full of people discussing, opening a mouth only to (pardon my french) fart loudly. no offense, but you know that better than anybody. gimme that patented snorkle wall of text. and it better be better reasoning than something like 'wild strike is shit because you have to namelock'. I dont remember life-based reavers trivializing shaper and guardians. reave's single target is crap. in a game where shit just dies when you stare at it, how can a skill that has excellent st as well as good aoe clear, be inferior to a skill that has crap st and great aoe clear ? Last edited by grepman#2451 on Dec 7, 2016, 5:34:55 AM
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" Last time I saw I_NO posting about something, it was about a shitty melee experience, so yes I'm pretty sure I_NO plays melee. And yes, those skills are all literally all of those forms of shit. Do you see any of them on the ladder? Heavy Strike = toxic waste is a joke too it's more like the ebola of POE. my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. |
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" You are not clearing fucking SHIT comfortably with mark of the doubting knight. The thing has NO CRIT, NO ATTACK SPEED, and MEDIOCRE dps. You can LITERALLY take a no-mods yellow dagger and mastercraft better dps on it for a BF build. This is the part where your agenda comes in, like people really believe you are serious about this shit? Should I refer you to the post where someone linked the *overpowered* dps of BF using a 280pdps dagger and then I listed a shit ton of spells that all do more BASE DPS ON THE GEM without needing a 280pdps dagger? BECAUSE IT WAS BASICALLY EVERY FUCKING SPELL IN POE, AND NONE OF THOSE REQUIRE ANY WEAPONS AT ALL. What do you think those numbers will look like using a 210pdps dagger with shitty attack speed and no crit on a BF gem which scales off of attack speed and, typically, crit? I'LL GIVE YOU ONE GUESS WHAT THEY'LL LOOK LIKE, IT RHYMES WITH *SPIT* AND STARTS WITH SH my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on Dec 7, 2016, 6:55:38 AM
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" woo, I see a lot of confusion here, let's try to address it without a wall of text ( I'm trying to ignore your antagonistic remarks, but it's tough ) : o I gave one very simple example related to flameblast, I really did, but you still do not understand the thing : - Spell echo alone was providing more cast speed than the reduced cast speed of the spell, making higher stages quicker to reach, that includes damage, and AOE. You could support it with faster casting to compensate, taking the spell echo gem slot. - Spell echo also had an impact on the mana cost, plus spell echo wasn't all the nerf, in case you would not know. I'll just quote somebody else :
Spoiler
Spell echo was also providing a huge help to mana sustain. Now it's clearly a nightmare to sustain a 6L (or even 5L) flameblast ==> you could go with reduced mana gem but it's clearly not as good as spell echo was in 1.3- .
The quality effect of Flameblast has also been gutted from 30% chance to ignite to only 10% increased damage with 20% quality. It means, that to get some equivalent you need to equip the "chance to ignite" gem (that replace spell echo) if you rely on non crit ignite. So if you want to sustain the mana cost of a 6L & rely on non crit ignite you need one more gem & of course a lot more investment in mana regen because even clarity effect has been nerfed. Now if you don't go proliferation and you go crit or you don't rely on status ailment, it's OK (but IMO very clunky in both conditions; a little less if you got more than 1000% crit chance for the crit version, that remains extremely expensive, and for that money invested i would go on another build for sure). - There is also the change to elemental proliferation, that directly impacted flameblast, I don't know if flameblast was the culprit, that that would really not be unlikely. o "You mean like say... if he had a shield?" : Very good example how you just don't read, and then troll as if you knew what's what, when you don't. Etup was as defensive as all those spell caster, if not actually more because of the easy accessibility of physical leech. He would have had any other build there, in range of the boss with DD, he would have riped, fatal mistake, it has of course nothing to do with BF, but one needs to know what happened to understand this of course. Plus he was going to scale more and more from high level crit gear in the next levels, had he not riped ( he was the one saying that actually ). That was called a "CI switch", thing ohhh so very rare at high level in the current meta, right ? o About your "predictions" ( lol ), first of all let's remind ourselves that they were pre-nerf : If I look at the top 20 right now for example : private profiles : 4 Elementalists 1 pathfinder 1 slayer 2 Necromancers public profiles : 2 slayer ( EQ 1, Cyclone 1 ) 3 Necromancer ( SRS 1, Support 1, Specter 1 ) 1 Chieftain ( AW 1 ) 1 Pathfinder ( BF 1 ) 2 Elementalist ( pizza stick 2 ) 1 Juggernaut ( EQ ) 1 Assassin ( BF ) Deleted characters : 1 Chieftain Facts : Excluding the one support, we have 10 public builds, including 2 BF ( so 20 %). 6 of them are technically ( with the game tag, and the scaling ), melee : 60%. In the private profiles, pathfinder and slayer could be BF ( elementalist could too, but I'm not expecting it, whispering ice / pizza sticks are just too OP to guess something else imho, spark / vaal spar also pretty strong, + some others ). If we count everything minus supports ( 3 total I would guess, or at least 2 ), we have 12% BF if none of the private profiles is playing it, 18% if there is at least one. Assuming that the deleted chieftain is AW, and that the other slayers + pathfinder are melee builds ( could be something else tho ), that would make ... 9 melee, on 17 or 18 damage builds : half, or more than half. You're already out here. The prediction on the number of supports being the most obvious of all. Now, to quote somebody else for ( at least some ) of the other points : " " It doesn't, he has a point, that everybody has been saying from the start. It takes some basic common sense to understand it though, so either you don't have it, or you are a troll. We could classify skill in two ways basically : 1. the gem tags and in game interactions / scaling 2. The literal meaning of words If the first case, that makes AW and BF melees, as well as EQ and Sunder for example. In the second, none of those 4 are really melee. Just in case : "Melee" literally refers to a crowd of people being very close together, and does somewhat imply the notion of a fight, a very close combat fight. What interests us here is obviously the notion of close combat. What is funny, is that you are mixing everything, you thing that BF is melee, but AW totems are not ... for some odd reason, this is very inconsistent. - Neither of them are actually close combat skills - Both of them have the 'melee' tag So if this lack of consistency shows something, it is that it's not the player that you were "attacking" that should be disqualified from further discussion. Plus he explained you what he considered BV melee right after ( as obvious as it was ), and you just ignored it. It is understandable that lightning tendrils can be seen as more "melee" than reave, since reave has a higher range at max stacks. Not at the first iteration though. Emphasy was trying to explain too but ... " Just this certainly does not mean that the skill is OP ( it has been nerfed, let's not forget, it's probably in a quite good spot right now, still pretty strong, we will see what GGG decides later ). But it already completely dissmiss what I_NO just said after you for example. They don't need help for either bosses or clearspeed with BF. " That sounds like a lot of lack of experience here. By the way, Nguyen is playing DW and is pretty fucking tanky : - the DW setup allows him to have basically no dps investment in the three with double dreamfeather - He was using QofF for the combination with double dreamfeather, that gave him arguably the best form of defense against pattern based bosses : mobility. Now he is using the new chest that gives free arctic armour - He has like 7500+ buffer already - He can sustain breaches with 0 troubles solo, he just destroyed the breachlord Xoph, without any kind of trouble, as an example ( not to say that this means it's OP, just (very) strong ) - He is still on a 5L For your information Edit : well ... wall of text it is lol. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Dec 7, 2016, 7:14:31 AM
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The big thing with BF is the investment. It isnt Flameblast that is essentially all to say about it and it isn't Earthquake.
Flameblast essentially requires you to have an item to socket it into and that's it. It isn't necessarily the best against breaches, because you can only charge in one direction and you essentially have to proc an ignite to clear all the mobs that rush at you, but I assume HC chars simply skip breaches if they feel uncomfortable earlier on. However later Flameblast has basically one issue. It doesn't provide sustain. A BF char just stands there and hits a boss. His leech will likely outsustain the damage of the boss and unless he get's oneshot the damage he deals hardly even matters. So it is basically BV all over again. The difference is the investment. BV required you to get a bit of crit and a Vinktars, and while Vinktars wasn't cheap it was hardly unreachable either. For BF you need Binos, however you also need a bit of a delicate balance between leech, ES (or life earlier on) and hopefully some crit to keep up your speed). There isn't that one item that solves all your issues. Another thing BV had going for it was that you precharged it. Charge stacks -> Run into enemies -> Charge stacks etc. This means that while actually in combat there was no need to stand still. And I assume the people here are aware that it is possible to dodge melee attacks or with BV also very likely just outright blow up an enemy before it has the chance to do anything. And that is also something BF is less likely to do. So a few things about BF: a) If you have good equip you will very likely clear faster with Reave, however you would go back to BF for bosses (it is an easy switch, because you can use exactly the same gems, you don't want to use Multistrike anyway, because one hit is enough, no need to stand still for 3 hits) b) When we look at damage we always assume the player manages a perfect 6 Stack release, which isn't necessarily true, the damage loss isn't too big if you release at 5, but if you release at 7 you essentially wasted an entire attack and it is even to charge even 8 attacks due to the high AS. c) You can amass huge amounts of poison damage with BF. Blade Flurry oddly enough has a more damage multiplier not a more attack damage multiplier or something like that. This means that the poison proliferation on Binos actually does something and with an Assassin you get over 300% more poison damage on a crit, which is a bit hillarious, since this means that your poison will deal about as much damage as the initial hit. So if we look at those things we quickly notice that BF is essentially a Boss killer all over. It is what Viper Strike should have been... just better. If you are looking for simply a good clear skill, BF is not necessarily the best option, it was with the old AoE, but the AoE nerfs pushed it into a specific direction, which is a good thing, because skills shouldn't be the best in everything. At a certain weapon quality Reave outperforms Blade Flurry in AoE, that is when you kill trash mobs with one hit, because Reave will overall hit more enemies than Blade Flurry. However no skill will ever come close to BFs boss potential right now. Maybe if someone manages to perma sustain high leach on BV again (maybe BV Berserker?), but otherwise BF will be the choice for outsustaining boss damage while just standing there tormenting them. I don't like speaking about OP skills just overall, because most skills have a clear position in the game, as they should. I wouldn't say Flameblast is overall the best skill, it clears very well but it is a lot weaker on bosses you can't instantly blow up(at least on ignite immune ones :P). This however hardly matters for Ladder purpose, to be top of the ladder you never have to kill Shaper or even one of the Guardians. We had times when the top ladder players never even did any of the higher maps, I doubt that is the case anymore, because a few of the red maps are quite valuable in terms of XP (exspecially with shaping). So this is an odd balance approach anyway (not to mention like I did before, that Hardcore is just a small minority of players). If BF is not strong, then it is at least fun, which is something that shouldn't change but if you look at standard where people are more inclined to just pick a fun skill than a good one BF is incredible popular, because it is a very fun skill to use. And considering some of their last skill designs this is a good sign, because many of the newer skills are at least fun to play with. " Well they said when they made the change that it was balance neutral and it was. Because if you didn't use Spell Echo before yes you got a buff, but you used an inferior skill to begin with. If we look at the option there is only the situation were you want to go all out on Burning Damage and replace Faster Casting with Increased Burning Damage or Increased Critical Strike Damage. But again most FB builds use Elemental Overload and ignore crit, so you are essentially out of options, considering how important cast speed on FB is, because you don't want to stand still for an unnecessary long time. And old FB + Spell Echo = new FB with Faster Casting. It would only be a buff if you have very little cast speed on gear and passivs, which again is fairly unlikely with FB because you want to have it fast, even with high CS it still possibly locks you in place for a secon to fully charge. And yes Spell Echo made Flameblast a lot cheaper. " At least for the popular Elementalist version this is a huge change. To be fair you essentially wasted a cast if your FB doesn't Ignite, because it also means no proliferation. And you get about 50% easily, but with the old Quality you could get 100%, essentially always Igniting. For the Crit Inquisitor builds this one doesn't matter as much. Still Flameblast is a very powerful choice that isn't really debatable. You essentially need nothing to use it, you can propably level up to maps with a 3l with +1 Fire to Gems. |
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" Just want to comment on that : This is not true, crit is and has always been the shit that scales the best in this game and ... no surprise here, it works eith BF bumping the dps to the sky, plus poison interactions .... But you can build elemental with it, or DreamFeather like Nguyen does for example. You could also just get a malicious claw, link added chaos and just go full chaos damage too I'm pretty sure. And that wouldn't be very expensive, it would scale less, but I bet it would still be very good. As for flameblast .... one big problem is the spell totem here, that makes bosses take full charges flameblast while the user is running around, it's ..... And for those particular cases, the sell echo removal was a buff, I don't know what was the state of totems back then, and it was probably not popular. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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