Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee

The problem isn't quite where you think it is, but maybe you have troubles understanding what I am saying, the other explanations are less kind to you so ...

I know it's not funny to have put yourself in such an embarrassing and ridiculous situation, but you're the only one to blame for it there, going directly to over-reacting, ad-hominem and ... well antagonizing, isn't exactly great.
Seriously.

"

Poutsos wrote:

RPGs usually have 3 playstyles, Melee attackers, Ranged Attackers and Casters with different strengths and weaknesses. PoE does alittle bit differently. It is

1)AoE with melee weapons
2)AoE with ranged weapons(bows, wands)
3)AoE with spells


Even from the begining of open beta we had that. Most popular melee skills were cleave, infernal blow(back then, especially on Aegis Builds), Ground Slam etc. Then it became worse with Reave,Spectral throw, Earthquake, Lacerate etc. and now we have Blade Flurry which completely embraces the trend and builds upon it. The quetion is which AoE is the best in each league.

Bows have been consistently very good, and even top tier from time to time(even now but only if you spend ALOT). Concerning AoE with Spells or melee weapons, things have been up and down, with spells most times dominating but not always. During 1.1 the best AoE was low life spectral throw, with low life wanders following. From then it has mostly been bows and casters. Earthquake was also very strong as well.

Thing is there is ONE playstyle (big AoE, High DPS/clearspeed), and only what does it best changes from league to league. Up to 1.1 tanks were also viable, but not anymore. I personally hate the fact that everything is basically the same, and i really dislike when skills like reave, blade flurry or earthquake are tied with the tag "Melee". However that's just how it is and i do not see it changing anytime soon.

Blade Flurry should and will be nerfed, but IMO, and following the trend of everchanging meta, it does deserve to stay as it is for one league.

(ARPGs, Tons of RPGs are turned based where it does not apply).
I would also split your list between many projectiles, and AoE, which are a different mechanics but serve the same purpose.
Not that it matters a lot to the point.

Bows don't cost a lot anymore, LG used to be a very pricey item, and now it's not even a one chaos one, and it still is pretty strong.
Thing is they offer less survivability, especially for ES builds ( which is definitly the trend, for good reasons ).

To be honest, last year I was already finding boring that one of the best chest ( there were a bit less attractive uniques then, and life was more popular ) was carcass jack, and for every build ... the choice was either AOE or many projectiles to cover the screen ... it's even worse now.

But with the high density of monsters and everything, I don't see it changing anytime soon indeed.

The thing is, about blade flurry, they will have much more data before the league, so they can already do some balance adjustments ( where after the league has started, even though it did happen in the past, it's ..... really not ideal ).

"

Fruz wrote:

The problem isn't quite where you think it is, but maybe you have troubles understanding what I am saying, the other explanations are less kind to you so ...

I know it's not funny to have put yourself in such an embarrassing and ridiculous situation, but you're the only one to blame for it there, going directly to over-reacting, ad-hominem and ... well antagonizing, isn't exactly great.
Seriously.

No the problem as usual is that the facts are staring you right in the goddamn face and you still want to pretend like they aren't. Just like the lab polls that were "rigged" and "manipulated" and then mysteriously the exact same results in a "safe poll".

As for ad hominem I don't think you know what that means. Ad hominem is when you attack the arguer as opposed to the argument for the sake of making the arguer's argument look worse. In your case it's simply people attacking you after being fed up with your ridiculous bullshit.

For example, Sure_K4y is capable of putting together a well-thought out argument that kind of resembles a sensible concept. We disagree on certain things but we both understand the facts and agree on certain other things.
In your case an example of a Fruz argument is "LOL THERE 15 MELEES IN THAT LIST". Nobody has any idea how the fuck you even reach that conclusion because it's simply NOT WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

This is why you need to stop posting on the goddamn forums, because you DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

No, the problem is that you are not consistent with what you are saying.
You started attacking on something because you missread or misunderstood, and got on your horse instantly with ad hominem and capsed texted, and you do not seem to realize it.

I pointed out that attacked did have advantages over spells in many way ( which is true ), from which you told me that there were "there was less than 5 attack based builds in top 50 of last hc league", which is a blatant literal lie and you know it.
From which you over reacted, etc ...

You are completely out of touch with the conversation one more time, I dare you to find somewhere where I said that there were 15 melee builds in the top 50 hc ?
Go ahead, you are going to chicken out because you can't anyway, because it seems that it's your only way of trying to argument, lies and fallacies.
The "I even linked it TO YOU" and then you realize that you are one more time wrong ( but ignore it of course ) is also pretty antagonizing tbh.


And yes, ad-hominem, like the one that was edited right before for example.

"you're too dense to understand" is another perfect example of ad-hominem.
[Removed by Support]
There was that hilarious "I'm going to petition that you be removed from forums someday." too lol, that one is really a good one.
I actually forgot to report those ones, I guess I will actually.

Should I keep going or you just conveniently ignore this ? Or you do not even realize it yourself, I don't know which is worse ...

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

For example, Sure_K4y is capable of putting together a well-thought out argument that kind of resembles a sensible concept. We disagree on certain things but we both understand the facts and agree on certain other things.
In your case an example of a Fruz argument is "LOL THERE 15 MELEES IN THAT LIST". Nobody has any idea how the fuck you even reach that conclusion because it's simply NOT WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

That's funny, because we had exactly the same point that went you go completely crazy :

"

Sure_K4y wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

So regardless of what you say about the advantages of weapons or attacks, you're wrong.

Mechanical advantages are not reflected ingame by way of powerlevel, that doesn't make mechanical advantages non-existant, it simply shows poor overall balance.

( On the point of attacks have advantages over spells, mechanical ones obviously ).


And some of his advice that you should probably follow :

"

Sure_K4y wrote:

You need to calm down already.

Unless you prefer keeping derailing the thread.

"

Perq wrote:

"

plodd wrote:

I'm not sure what it is you really want to achieve with all this talk of nerfs.

You do realise there is a big difference between balancing and nerfing.

To say "If it's OP it deserves a nerf, that's all there is to it." is far removed from balancing, especially if the focus of the nerf is an individual gem.

So you would be somewhat satisfied if all the other "op" crap in the game remains and only blade flurry is nerfed ? Because and I quote again "If it's OP it deserves a nerf, that's all there is to it."

If there are other skills out there that can perform as well as blade flurry, then it shouldn't be targeted for nerfs unless everything else is.

I don't know maybe im just crazy, but that just seems so obvious and logical to me.

Another possibility is blade flurry upset you in some way and you are emotionally compelled to seek revenge.

Errrr, no. What is this? Why are you reinventing the idea of balancing with some sort of new terms?
You balance the game by either nerfing or buffing certain elements of the game (with mechanics and/or numbers). Nerfing IS part of balancing.

And what? You nerf things that are far outperforming everything else, that is the point of BALANCING - so that everything performs more or less the same. Altho there is an idea of keeping the game in state of perfect imbalance, so that there is meta shifting around, keeping people interested and makes the game look fresh, even tho not much content is added - look at League, which changes a lot in every pre-season patch, making the game interesting again, because you need to catch up.
And while I agree that this strategy works, shaking the meta too much, and adding skills as broken as Blade Flurry has potential to break the game for good.

Melee, as a whole, needs a mechanical rethinking - not melee-ranged skills that outperform bows.
Seriously, people like you calling for everything to be overpowered are the ones who then complain about the game being broken and/or boring.

You misunderstood what I said.

There is more to making something op than the skill gem itself.

For example bv. Bv is so strong not because it does such crazy damage, but because its possible to be immortal with it due to other mechanics such as pathfinder, vinktars, es, vaal pact.
Nerfing the gem is not balancing because another skill will just take over if the supporting mechanics are still in place. Which is what we see happening over and over again.

Now we have blade flurry. Its not so op unless you are playing es dagger build, probably assassin with vaal pact so fortunately close by.

Make a life build or a sword build with a class on the left side of the tree and although its still a very nice skill it wont even come close to a lot of builds.

Nerfing the gem is not the way to go, balancing the mechanics that support this skill gem and others is the only way to balance the game.

Also for your information I don't play op builds, that's why I refused to make a bino's assassin bf (I don't own loath bane) and instead opted for an inquisitor sword build. Very nice build but certainly not op when you hit t14's.
I never played pathfinder anything and I only dabble with es for the sake of comparison.

My main lvl 97 is a 1 handed mace groundslammer. So I hardly think I can be accused of wanting everything to be op.

To say blade flurry far outperforms everything else is just not true.

Its the most powerful melee tagged single target for sure. But its not that far ahead of things like flameblast or certain bow builds for single target.

Its certainly not the fastest at trash clearing.

"

For example bv. Bv is so strong not because it does such crazy damage, but because its possible to be immortal with it due to other mechanics such as pathfinder, vinktars, es, vaal pact.
Nerfing the gem is not balancing because another skill will just take over if the supporting mechanics are still in place. Which is what we see happening over and over again.

Although I do agree BV is a bad example, because on top of all that it does deal too much damage. Otherwise it wouldn't work, because Vinktars overall "only" offers 4% life leech (20% Leech and you convert 20% physical damage to Lightning). So damage is an important part.

This is also the reason why Blade Flurry should get a damage nerf. It is a bit different with BV. Blade Flurry has awesome mechanics, if Blade Vortex loses its sustain it is a useless skill because you are actually melee. But even with 15% less damage overall Blade Flurry would be a great skill just not as incredible as it is now. Removing the increases in AoE with level up would be another option to make it less safe. It doesn't have to get hit that hard, but people expect a nerf to Blade Vortex and it would be odd to remove it with just another option that is so far above most other skills.

I don't think they will hit it too hard anyway, because they still want it to be used. I actually hope more for a buff to blight and maybe even a tiny one to scorching ray, but trimming Blade Flurry a bit (like a said 15% overall damage, a small AoE nerf or even just 10% damage would be enough to make it feel not as overwhelming). If you have a dagger basically any other skill you can perform with this dagger feels worse.

"

plodd wrote:

You misunderstood what I said.

There is more to making something op than the skill gem itself.

For example bv. Bv is so strong not because it does such crazy damage, but because its possible to be immortal with it due to other mechanics such as pathfinder, vinktars, es, vaal pact.
Nerfing the gem is not balancing because another skill will just take over if the supporting mechanics are still in place. Which is what we see happening over and over again.

Funnily enough you can recharge flasks with Bladeflurry almost equally well. With a bit of practice you'll end up charging up to 6 stacks and releasing the button on time consistantly, which can amount to way over 14 successful hits per second.

Another thing in regards to mechanics is how flurry's inherent more multiplyer works with poison. Not to mention how fast you can stack it up with flurry. And poison is here to stay, mind you.

"

plodd wrote:

Now we have blade flurry. Its not so op unless you are playing es dagger build, probably assassin with vaal pact so fortunately close by.

Make a life build or a sword build with a class on the left side of the tree and although its still a very nice skill it wont even come close to a lot of builds.

So, in saying that daggers are the best one handed weapon class you're obviously right. However you can also get amazingly powerful results with dual wield scourges, or dual wield razor of the seventh sun. Both these uniques still hold their own when used with a shield as well.

"

plodd wrote:

Nerfing the gem is not the way to go, balancing the mechanics that support this skill gem and others is the only way to balance the game.

If you nerf the mechanics that can be used with the skill, you nerf the supporting mechanics for every other build as well. In doing so you'll end up causing more problem than you would solve.

"

plodd wrote:

Also for your information I don't play op builds, that's why I refused to make a bino's assassin bf (I don't own loath bane) and instead opted for an inquisitor sword build. Very nice build but certainly not op when you hit t14's.
I never played pathfinder anything and I only dabble with es for the sake of comparison.

Skills and gems need to be balanced around the most abuseable scenario. When you decide you don't want take the "easy way", it doesn't mean nobody else will. People in this game gravitate to the builds that can trivialize content the best. Assuming flurry stays as is, we can be certain that most flurry builds (+80% of them) will run daggers.

"

plodd wrote:

My main lvl 97 is a 1 handed mace groundslammer. So I hardly think I can be accused of wanting everything to be op.

To say blade flurry far outperforms everything else is just not true.

Its the most powerful melee tagged single target for sure. But its not that far ahead of things like flameblast or certain bow builds for single target.

Its certainly not the fastest at trash clearing.

While there are skills that can still clear faster and maybe even easier than Flurry does, it doesn't make flurry less of a problem.

"

Emphasy wrote:

"

For example bv. Bv is so strong not because it does such crazy damage, but because its possible to be immortal with it due to other mechanics such as pathfinder, vinktars, es, vaal pact.
Nerfing the gem is not balancing because another skill will just take over if the supporting mechanics are still in place. Which is what we see happening over and over again.

Although I do agree BV is a bad example, because on top of all that it does deal too much damage. Otherwise it wouldn't work, because Vinktars overall "only" offers 4% life leech (20% Leech and you convert 20% physical damage to Lightning). So damage is an important part.

You forget that there's a thing in this game called "physical to lightning damage", which greatly increases the base lightning damage from which Vinktar leeches, and you forget that the flask nodes you get also increase the total conversion (If you use a conVinktar) along with the amount of mana and life leeched, because both are flask effects.

BV with phys to lightning allows players to leechtank pretty much everything this game throws at them, and phys to lightning conveniently works with bladeflurry as well.

"

Emphasy wrote:

This is also the reason why Blade Flurry should get a damage nerf. It is a bit different with BV. Blade Flurry has awesome mechanics, if Blade Vortex loses its sustain it is a useless skill because you are actually melee. But even with 15% less damage overall Blade Flurry would be a great skill just not as incredible as it is now. Removing the increases in AoE with level up would be another option to make it less safe. It doesn't have to get hit that hard, but people expect a nerf to Blade Vortex and it would be odd to remove it with just another option that is so far above most other skills.

You can reach very good AOE values with flurry just by way of passives. The assumption that flurry is strong because of its AOE is false. All you need is a fast movement skill and enough AOE to cover a regular pack of monsters entirely. If done right, flurry can function perfectly fine and won't require an inc-AOE gem on top of also not requiring a multistrike support gem. You can slap on a lot more damage supports just because of this.

"

Emphasy wrote:

I don't think they will hit it too hard anyway, because they still want it to be used. I actually hope more for a buff to blight and maybe even a tiny one to scorching ray, but trimming Blade Flurry a bit (like a said 15% overall damage, a small AoE nerf or even just 10% damage would be enough to make it feel not as overwhelming). If you have a dagger basically any other skill you can perform with this dagger feels worse.

Flurry's inherent more multipliers are a problem. You get too much speed and too much damage without having to invest a lot, if anything at all, in terms of passives. Flurry is too good for too cheap, so it's OP.

Just posting reminder that Blade Flurry does 2-3 times the damage of other melee skills, while being ranged and AoE.

"

Turbodevil wrote:

Just posting reminder that Blade Flurry does 2-3 times the damage of other melee skills, while being ranged and AoE.

Not that anyone cares, though... All people want is their OP toy left unscathed. I bet the next thing that's going to happen is someone saying that some other melee skill is compareable in some way shape or form, and thus BF can't possibly be OP. Or another one saying some casters are way OP, and thus we just have to have a melee skill that is OP too, because fighting fire with fire is the way to go.

"

Turbodevil wrote:

Just posting reminder that Blade Flurry does 2-3 times the damage of other melee skills, while being ranged and AoE.

Well, the debate is more about how it can compete or not compared to the most powerful skills out there.

We also don't know exactly how far player will be able to push the skill, even though players got much better at knowing how to min max.
I mean, got got out couple of days ago, and still seem to be performing pretty fucking well compared to the meta skills.
( Of course I am talking out of just seeing couple of stream and readint people's reactions here ).

"

Fruz wrote:

We also don't know exactly how far player will be able to push the skill, even though players got much better at knowing how to min max.

Scales of melee tag
#Check
Has aoe tag allowing clear speed overkill and conc swap for bosses (double 60% more dip)
#Check
Has relevant %damage scaling(65% per stage followed by 20% more per stage increase, topping it off with 65% more attack speed for shits and giggles?)
#Check

The tags alone make it "meta viable".

It could do half the damage it currently does and with the amount of overkill you can reach it would still be "viable".
Hell it would still be meta for the players that can throw exalts at it.

Its basically 142% base damage spectral throw all over again. Just replacing projectile double dip scaling with aoe.

Peace,

-Boem-