Just another thread about Labyrinths and how they are GARBAGE

"

sidtherat wrote:

game got too genereous in attracting too wide of an audience - game that appeals to anyone is not really a game. some players have to go (previously self-found players.. players living in remote/bad-internet areas.. and now players that assume that game is right-click to victory no-brain required)

lab has a 'game gets harder' (yes, some lab-haters can do it, but some cannot because they play copypasta build poorly - lab says them 'you are not really good at this game' and they hate it), lab forces people to think a little about their characters (without using stupid generalizations like 'life regen or gtfo' or 'hybrids cannot do it' - these are stupid things to say and they show that people with no skill nor experience shouldnt provide feedback)

+1000 Oh, my... This is so well explained that it hurts. People just want to go full automatic mode and keep wining. No thinking, no adapting, no positioning. Just face-tanking and keep going. Traps are a way to rekt that kind of people and educate their behaviour.

Lab salty tears are even more delicious than before.

"

Expugnaturum wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

game got too genereous in attracting too wide of an audience - game that appeals to anyone is not really a game. some players have to go (previously self-found players.. players living in remote/bad-internet areas.. and now players that assume that game is right-click to victory no-brain required)

lab has a 'game gets harder' (yes, some lab-haters can do it, but some cannot because they play copypasta build poorly - lab says them 'you are not really good at this game' and they hate it), lab forces people to think a little about their characters (without using stupid generalizations like 'life regen or gtfo' or 'hybrids cannot do it' - these are stupid things to say and they show that people with no skill nor experience shouldnt provide feedback)

+1000 Oh, my... This is so well explained that it hurts. People just want to go full automatic mode and keep wining. No thinking, no adapting, no positioning. Just face-tanking and keep going. Traps are a way to rekt that kind of people and educate their behaviour.

Lab salty tears are even more delicious than before.

I can't believe you went there, but I'm glad you did.

"

Turtledove wrote:

Regarding the negative feedback being more common than positive feedback argument. So what? I assume that you're not arguing that; it means that negative feedback is invalid? I assume you don't think it means a majority of people love labyrinth? So what if negative feedback is generally more common?

Do you think that there is another topic here in the Feedback and Suggestions forum with as many threads? That seems like significant anecdotal evidence to me?

The lab rework will be just like the auction house, skill balance, summoners love, vorici's missions and few other things.

No matter what you say, they will ignore, cause they think that it was a good job.

I haven't played since the asc update (cause it sux), I'm back now and I love the atlas, but eveytime I HAVE TO join the lab, I just want to log off and rip my eyes off.

Boring, tedious and doesn't need any skills. Just look to the ground, find the trap, time it and walk... over and over again.

For those who think that this is "high I.Q required", take your heads out of your b...s

"

SupaMF wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

Regarding the negative feedback being more common than positive feedback argument. So what? I assume that you're not arguing that; it means that negative feedback is invalid? I assume you don't think it means a majority of people love labyrinth? So what if negative feedback is generally more common?

Do you think that there is another topic here in the Feedback and Suggestions forum with as many threads? That seems like significant anecdotal evidence to me?

The lab rework will be just like the auction house, skill balance, summoners love, vorici's missions and few other things.

No matter what you say, they will ignore, cause they think that it was a good job.

I haven't played since the asc update (cause it sux), I'm back now and I love the atlas, but eveytime I HAVE TO join the lab, I just want to log off and rip my eyes off.

Boring, tedious and doesn't need any skills. Just look to the ground, find the trap, time it and walk... over and over again.

For those who think that this is "high I.Q required", take your heads out of your b...s

The lab is less boring a tedious than leveling to maps, and it's done in a tenth the time. Also you don't have to do the lab, you could happily play at the power level before you quit, there's been no balancing around ascendencies.

As for do I think that more people love the lab than hate it? No, because you're using really strong words, and the lab haters are really bitter apparently. Do I think more people think the lab is fine than dislike it yes. I think the vast majority of people have no strong feelings either way, but the people who like that fact that it's a change up in from mapping, and honestly different content in a genre that plays mostly the same outweigh the people who are grumpy and spam feedback.

Go read the threads you already point to, every one of them also has people defending the lab right in them.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

because the dev team is obviously avoiding talking about the Labyrinth. Not that I blame them--it's a hot subject--but after this much time and this much controversy talking about it in a podcast or manifesto is more than indicated.

they did talk

Pfft.

"

game got too genereous in attracting too wide of an audience - game that appeals to anyone is not really a game. some players have to go (previously self-found players.. players living in remote/bad-internet areas.. and now players that assume that game is right-click to victory no-brain required)

lab has a 'game gets harder' (yes, some lab-haters can do it, but some cannot because they play copypasta build poorly - lab says them 'you are not really good at this game' and they hate it), lab forces people to think a little about their characters (without using stupid generalizations like 'life regen or gtfo' or 'hybrids cannot do it' - these are stupid things to say and they show that people with no skill nor experience shouldnt provide feedback)

You're trotting out this old BS again?

It's already been well-established that the biggest problems with the Laby do not include difficulty. You just choose to ignore them so you can parade this straw man around instead again and again, and then easily tear it down.

If you honestly think the biggest detractors are casual scrubs, then you quite obviously aren't paying any attention. At all.

"

final note: lab-haters did A LOT to make other people despise them. including devs. shit-eating analogies used to comment on someone's job surely helped the cause. being obnoxious and downright trolly (bumping threads, creating alts, talking in circles with the same few people just to keep their thread on top, etc etc) surely helped as well.

Right. Because obviously YOU are an exemplar of even-handed, non-trolly, non-venomous posting, as well as non-circular argumentation.

"

SupaMF wrote:

No matter what you say, they will ignore, cause they think that it was a good job.

I haven't played since the asc update (cause it sux), I'm back now and I love the atlas, but eveytime I HAVE TO join the lab, I just want to log off and rip my eyes off.

Boring, tedious and doesn't need any skills. Just look to the ground, find the trap, time it and walk... over and over again.

For those who think that this is "high I.Q required", take your heads out of your b...s

I think you are at least partially correct (I referenced "escalation of commitment" earlier in this thread), but I also think there are other elements in play:

1. Damage control and avoiding bad publicity. Even the smallest concession amounts to a tacit admission that their decisions were badly thought out, damaging their credibility.

2. If Chris is managing a sub-team who created this content, don't you think he would (and should) try to protect that sub-team, at least to an extent? Admitting that the Laby needs a massive overhaul (and/or should never have been released in its current state) would be a massive blow to their self-esteem and morale. From a management perspective, he might think it makes more sense to wait until this blows over (though there seems little likelihood of that, as new players who hate the lab often feel strongly enough about it to talk about it on the forums), and THEN quietly introduce an Ascension alternative.

3. GGG obviously didn't plan for the Laby to receive so much hate. Why not? Well, that's a good question, but it's a topic best left to another thread. In any case, because of this, they don't have any alternative Ascendancy methods available (look at all the work they did in putting Ascension-related lore INSIDE the labyrinth--new graphics, voice-overs, etc.). That means they need to put it somewhere inside the development cycle, and these cycles are often mapped out a year or more in advance. It's not always feasible or desireable to cancel future content creation to take care of fuck-ups. Remember, without a steady drip of new material to keep players interested, PoE will bleed out, and the company along with it. Though they are losing customers due to the Labyrinth, it's not hard to create a compelling argument that they would lose even more if they ceased this steady drip of new content.

Silence is not the same as inattention.

The lab is good it is not so hard to do and the boss is really easy compare to some bosses in maps or even Beyond bosses.

Also, it is lore-friendly , basicaly , your char is a nobody at the start then the lab -which was build to select the emperor- pass it to the next level, i like this idea and if it was too easy (another brainless clear areas sequence) it would have been ridiculous.

However, i think the UberLab and the Uber trials are really bad , it sounds like a lack of imagination of the GGG team.
To image a bit, i feel like, GGG served us a fresh new meal that we had to eat 3 times ,the rewards to finish those were fine but suddenly just after you finished the 3rd meal a GGG guy comes and serves you (again !) the same meal that you didnt order, you are looking at your plate and you notice the content has been hardly defrosted, it is disgusting and you are not hungry anymore ; you just don't want to eat it for whatever reward...

To give some perspective, as I have several times before...

As a bit of a newer player, I freaking absolutely hate Lab. It's boring, it's time consuming, and it's in no way fun or challenging. If you just stay awake and have a halfway decent build, at least Norm-Merc are very easy. The difficulty, even for a newer player is not, and has never been the issue.

The issue is that it's just plain poor-quality content, that is for many players not at all enjoyable to do, and even worse to be forced to do 3+ times every new build, every new league.

I love this game, I play it a lot, and I intend to keep playing it, but I've never enjoyed a single moment spent in a lab. I do not like being locked into any content that I cannot leave and complete at a later time if real life intrudes, I do not like mazes, puzzles, and boring, repetitive mechanics used over and over throughout a map. I've spent some money on POE, and would be willing to spend more, but it's not really worth it for me as long as I'm forced to keep doing labs over and over every new build I decide to try.

I play POE to have fun. The Lab is the only major part of POE I find to be the utter opposite of fun, and I know I'm certainly not alone. Yes, sure, there's people who enjoy the Lab, so leave it in for them, give it some great rewards and up the difficulty to give it a purpose. For the love of all things holy however, please, un-gate Ascendancy points from the damn thing, enough is enough.

Whether it's truly a majority of us or just a very, very vocal minority, as newer player I have no way to say one way or another. What I can say is when you have this much bad press about a single part of your game, as a Dev, you're doing it wrong. "Divisive content" is not a good thing, and whoever told Chris that it was needs to be punched in the mouth, repeatedly, for ever putting that idea in his head.

"

lustar wrote:

The lab is good it is not so hard to do and the boss is really easy compare to some bosses in maps or even Beyond bosses.

Also, it is lore-friendly , basicaly , your char is a nobody at the start then the lab -which was build to select the emperor- pass it to the next level, i like this idea and if it was too easy (another brainless clear areas sequence) it would have been ridiculous.

However, i think the UberLab and the Uber trials are really bad , it sounds like a lack of imagination of the GGG team.
To image a bit, i feel like, GGG served us a fresh new meal that we had to eat 3 times ,the rewards to finish those were fine but suddenly just after you finished the 3rd meal a GGG guy comes and serves you (again !) the same meal that you didnt order, you are looking at your plate and you notice the content has been hardly defrosted, it is disgusting and you are not hungry anymore ; you just don't want to eat it for whatever reward...

Honestly think it would have been more fitting for GGG to say here's Uber lab. Keys drop from map bosses (or something). Having fun. And have the new totems and mechanics in uber lab be a complete surprise without any teasing and previews.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

What many people are ignoring is the actual content of the lab-hate threads. I have read dozens of well-structured arguments for the lab being problematic from dozens of different players which do not have any remotely convincing rebuttal from those who disagree.

But even if only one poster out of 1000 thinks the Labyrinth sucks, if that poster has a quality piece of critical feedback that can lead to a huge improvement, then that feedback is worth listening to.

Quality complaints and quantity of complaints, while both significant, are not the same thing. Though it's quite obvious to anyone paying attention that this particular issue has inspired a great deal of both.

"

Mooginator wrote:

Oh, and this is the first time I didn't buy a supporter pack. Why? Because of the requirement to run labs to gain ascendancy points.

I too refrained from buying a supporter pack after this last patch, not just because there were no changes to the Labyrinth (and no, I don't think the rewards should be increased) but because the dev team is obviously avoiding talking about the Labyrinth. Not that I blame them--it's a hot subject--but after this much time and this much controversy talking about it in a podcast or manifesto is more than indicated.

It's funny, but I bet the first patch they release where the Labyrinth's poor risk/reward structure (with 90% of the reward sitting inside a pinata at the end, encouraging players to skip as much of the content as possible) is fixed, or the first patch they release where the Labyrinth is no longer required, will be the patch where a lot of players finally start buying supporter packs again. So they'll see a sudden influx of revenue.

Of course, they won't see any from players who didn't stick around long enough to see things improve.

Perhaps GGG isn't talking about changing, or not changing the lab because it's a non issue to them. Just because a small minority are salty about something, doesn't mean they need to create a safe space for them.

"

Xtorma wrote:

Perhaps GGG isn't talking about changing, or not changing the lab because it's a non issue to them. Just because a small minority are salty about something, doesn't mean they need to create a safe space for them.

Hmm, yes. All we want is a safe space.

Your non-sequitur is begging for a meme gif, but I'll refrain in favor of not further derailing the thread. :P

"Small minority." Heh heh.