Just another thread about Labyrinths and how they are GARBAGE

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ShaUrley wrote:

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Let me ask you: how often do you or your family or people you know leave a feedback card/ ask for a manager/ whatever to praise a waiter or product?

As a matter of fact, I had a couple of opportunities to provide feedback just yesterday. One was (a fairly expensive) meal in a restaurant that wasn't terrible but had some problems. A feedback card was provided with the bill, which I did not fill out. The other was a service someone provided me and I left a comment thanking them and telling them they did a good job.

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PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

You can't just look at the list of complainers and say "Well with this many threads it is more likely that most people dislike the lab even if they don't post about it." because that isn't how this works in real life or in video games. If there were thousands of threads and posts constantly spamming the forums for GGG to change it I would agree but as it is right now, us saying that the lab complainers are in the minority have more reason to believe we are correct.

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Zaludoz wrote:

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PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

You can't just look at the list of complainers and say "Well with this many threads it is more likely that most people dislike the lab even if they don't post about it." because that isn't how this works in real life or in video games. If there were thousands of threads and posts constantly spamming the forums for GGG to change it I would agree but as it is right now, us saying that the lab complainers are in the minority have more reason to believe we are correct.

If everybody who disliked the lab started posting their own threads, they'd be told to stop spamming - not praised for bringing up a valid issue. In addition, there are more forces at work within forums and game communities than personal opinions and freeness/willingness to express them.

*Some* reasons for remaining silent, despite discontent:
* Some may feel there's no point to voice their opinion because it's unlikely to get results.
* Some may feel others have posted opinions close enough to their own, in better words, so they'd rather not say it themselves, only worse.
* Some may leave the game before posting anything, in disgust.
* Some may not want to be flamed on a board with "get gud scrub" or whatever taunts may come their way for voicing their opinion contrary to those who don't agree with their opinion and treat any criticism against GGG as whining. (this could have been phrased better)
* Some people stay quiet because they dislike confrontation and would rather not argue the point.
* There is a prevailing sentiment on these boards against contributing to any long threads and "dead horse" topics about long-standing problems people have with the game.
* Some people don't think their opinion matters.
* Some people may not have strong enough feelings against the labyrinth to take the time to post anything about it, but they don't like it, none-the-less.

I could go on. There are many reasons people don't post their dislike of something in the game. Those who post on these boards feel strongly enough to speak their mind about it. If they don't care that strongly one way or the other, they can't be counted among the "lab lovers" or "lab haters", though some from both sides would like to claim them.


There is no reason to say the "Lab lovers" are in a majority either.
Reasons "Lab Lovers" may appear to be a larger group:
* Those who post in support of keeping the labyrinth untouched may simply be against changing the game due to posts on any forum (as if this is the developers submitting to whining). Their reason for being against change is thus not linked to "loving" the labyrinth but they are almost always counted among the "lab lovers" anyway.
* They may be against changing the labyrinth because they profit from the current state.
* They may like feeling superior to others because of how they can play the game, assuming those who dislike it cannot defeat the same challenge (though these ignore that there are "lab haters" who successfully complete the labyrinth but hate it anyway). These are the sort of posters who brag about obtaining a random drop and gloat over those who haven't gotten it too. Thus, their reason to be against the change has nothing to do with "loving" the labyrinth, but their love of having something to hold over others.
* There are people who think a game developer always knows best, and want to stifle any voices opposing that point of view (when they're just people too, and can make mistakes, or don't know what's going to be successful) (These are generally called "White Knights" that will blindly defend anything a company does, despite others having differing viewpoints about the company's decisions and their impact on their enjoyment of the product.)

Of the silent majority who do not post at all:
* There are people who tolerate anything and won't express their dislike.
* There are people who respond well to negative reinforcement, using failure to increase their determination to succeed.
* There are people who like mini-games in their main games to "break things up" (in fact, I think *some* "Lab Haters" would enjoy the Labyrinth as a totally optional mini-game for massive loot rewards, but not as a required part of every single character's development.)

I could go on. There are many reasons people post or do not post. (and I wouldn't compare the polling done on message boards to polls about elections and such... so many different factors here and reasons for expressing an opinion or not)

GGG cannot tell how many people like the Labyrinth. They have numbers of how many people enter it, how may complete it once, or maybe they never enter at all, but they don't know why. They can extrapolate, guess, and hope, the same as us. Their saying that only a "vocal minority" dislike the labyrinth is as much an empty statement as any other post here, I'm afraid. And that's even taking into account all the posts on these boards. They can't even be certain that the reasons people put forth in their posts are the actual reasons they're for or against a certain topic!


So, spare me the whole "vocal minority", "silent majority" extrapolations and simply accept that the issue is impacting part of the community in such a strong way as to remove their enjoyment from the game, to the extent of causing many to leave.

Those that post on both sides have a vested interest in seeing change, so that they may enjoy the game. There have been posts as to how to change the labyrinth in such a way as to keep the current labyrinth in place, while offering alternatives to make the labyrinth itself optional content. If such a suggestion were followed, those who don't like change can continue to use the labyrinth as it currently stands, while those who don't can avoid it. Love or hate aside, such a resolution to the situation only makes the game better for all involved (well, maybe not for those who profit from the current situation with "lab carries" and such, but I find that reason highly selfish and not conducive to the health and longevity of the game).

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ShaUrley wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

You cannot draw a conclusion about how many people severely dislike the lab you simply do not have the data, GGG does that have all sorts of metadata to draw a better conclusion, and their conclusion seems to be that people are generally at least okay with it.

So it's unscientific to use what data we have (forum posts, surveys, steam numbers), flawed as it may be, but it is scientific to appeal to the authority of GGG even though we have no idea what their data actually shows?

To repeat from a previous post on a similar situation, Jay Wilson made the following comment when he finally acknowledged the failure of the D3 auction house that almost every D3 player used:

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"I think we would turn it off if we could," Wilson said during his talk. But the problem is "not as easy as that;" with all of Blizzard's current players, he says the company "has no idea" how many players like the system or hate it.

If Blizzard couldn't tell how many players liked or hated the auction house, do you think GGG is in an any better position to tell how many players like or dislike the lab, as opposed to how many players use it? Especially when GGG has shown (in my opinion) extreme bias toward the lab and extraordinary reluctance to acknowledge its unpopularity, despite stacking enormously greater rewards behind the lab than any other content in the game.

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There is a strong bias in forum posts for people to complain about things, and not only is that not taken into account, but it actually doesn't take into account the few forum posts that actually do like the lab.

And you know this how or it's just a guess? Certainly posts and surveys are self-selected, but how do you know they over-represent critics of the lab rather than under-represent them? For every player posting here about how they don't like the lab, there are many others who feel the same way who aren't posting or who left the game already; and maybe the people who do like the lab are more motivated to come on the forums to defend than the people who have given up on the issue. I doubt that the lab haters are a majority but, who knows, they could be. And if it is a minority it is surely a very substantial one; my guess is it's larger than the group of players that actively like the lab (of which, of course, there are quite a few).

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Mooginator wrote:

Oh, and this is the first time I didn't buy a supporter pack. Why? Because of the requirement to run labs to gain ascendancy points.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

the dev team is obviously avoiding talking about the Labyrinth

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ShaUrley wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

the dev team is obviously avoiding talking about the Labyrinth

Yes, their silence is pretty remarkable. Putting core aspects of character development behind an entirely new gameplay type for Path of Exile is (for me) the most consequential design decision that GGG has made in PoE (and not in a good way). Yet there's not one peep from them to explain why this was done. There's no reason we should have to interpret the meaning of GGG's silence as if they were some cryptic Delphic oracle. Of course, at this point, GGG is between a rock and a hard place -- anything they say is bound to piss of a substantial group of people, one way or the other.

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(And, to forestall some objections: I want something from GGG not some poster giving us his/her version of what he/she supposes GGG's manifesto to be; and yes I'm perfectly entitled to ask GGG for much more communication on this topic; whether or not they choose to provide it is their business)

It's not directly relevant now, but I really wonder what went on behind closed doors in their original decision about the lab+AC. Did they think about it at all or did they say: "what the hell, we have the lab and we have the ascendancy points, let's just stick 'em behind the lab"? Or was there some realization that it might be controversial and was there internal debate and dissention about it? Or was it that they were so invested in the lab, with its huge development effort, that they were going to make sure (almost) everyone ran it, and they just assumed most of them would enjoy it as much as Chris apparently did?

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gibbousmoon wrote:

because the dev team is obviously avoiding talking about the Labyrinth. Not that I blame them--it's a hot subject--but after this much time and this much controversy talking about it in a podcast or manifesto is more than indicated.