Just another thread about Labyrinths and how they are GARBAGE

I don't have problems with lab but it does annoy me that they withdrawn from giving max Ascendancy points for the given difficulty (i.e. doing only Merci lab you got 6 points instantly - for some reason that's not the case anymore...)

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Marrond wrote:

I don't have problems with lab but it does annoy me that they withdrawn from giving max Ascendancy points for the given difficulty (i.e. doing only Merci lab you got 6 points instantly - for some reason that's not the case anymore...)

That was only for characters created before the labyrinth was introduced.

Really? Oh my bad then - still, it's time consuming and running lab without somewhat-end-gear to put enchants onto is just a pure waste of time.

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j33bus wrote:

Just to be clear, a less than 1% response rate on a poll means that there's a 5% chance that your results are within +- 50% of your mean. That's crap by any standard, especially because there are clear biases that aren't accounted for in your data.

Also this isn't a voting poll, people with the opposite opinion aren't nearly as encouraged to respond.

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Some of the purposes served by this list are;
- providing anecdotal evidence as to how a significant percentage of the player base dislikes the labyrinth,
- demonstrates that there's been many problems in the labyrinth,
- help bring attention to the issue in the hope that GGG will fix the problem by making labyrinth optional or making ascendancy points available without requiring bad trap gameplay,
- and it demonstrates how horribly divisive the labyrinth has become for the community.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

It demonstrates and a small amount of people don't like the lab but no problems with it.

GGG knows the read every thread, a summary thread doesn't serve this purpose.

That's a conclusion drawn from poor data collection.

You are wrong about polls. The polling done for voting is surprisingly accurate and samples far less than 1%. You are also wrong when stating that anecdotal evidence is not evidence. For example, it pretty close to flat out proved the statement that only 9 people complain about labyrinth on this forum as false.

The rest of you statements seem to be arguing against a position that I haven't seen made. I know I haven't made any claims about evidence for percentage. Perhaps you're confusing me with the OP? I will say that my personal guess on the number of people that strongly dislike labyrinth would be more like 30% to 60%? Of course, it's fair to assume that many of those people no longer play PoE. In support of the OP's 80% guess, I could go with a guess of 20% liking labyrinth (the content minus the rewards).

We need more "I hate Lab" threads like we need more stupid reporters asking Hillary about her private email server (sic). Give it a rest! This is old and dead.

I'm not wrong about polls that's just how statistics work out, it's just math, any course in statistical analysis will say the same numbers.

Also it wasn't anecdotal evidence that proved that only 9 people severely dislike the lab is wrong, that you actually pointed at many people.

You cannot draw a conclusion about how many people severely dislike the lab you simply do not have the data, GGG does that have all sorts of metadata to draw a better conclusion, and their conclusion seems to be that people are generally at least okay with it.

There is a strong bias in forum posts for people to complain about things, and not only is that not taken into account, but it actually doesn't take into account the few forum posts that actually do like the lab.

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j33bus wrote:

You cannot draw a conclusion about how many people severely dislike the lab you simply do not have the data, GGG does that have all sorts of metadata to draw a better conclusion, and their conclusion seems to be that people are generally at least okay with it.

So it's unscientific to use what data we have (forum posts, surveys, steam numbers), flawed as it may be, but it is scientific to appeal to the authority of GGG even though we have no idea what their data actually shows?

To repeat from a previous post on a similar situation, Jay Wilson made the following comment when he finally acknowledged the failure of the D3 auction house that almost every D3 player used:

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"I think we would turn it off if we could," Wilson said during his talk. But the problem is "not as easy as that;" with all of Blizzard's current players, he says the company "has no idea" how many players like the system or hate it.

If Blizzard couldn't tell how many players liked or hated the auction house, do you think GGG is in an any better position to tell how many players like or dislike the lab, as opposed to how many players use it? Especially when GGG has shown (in my opinion) extreme bias toward the lab and extraordinary reluctance to acknowledge its unpopularity, despite stacking enormously greater rewards behind the lab than any other content in the game.

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There is a strong bias in forum posts for people to complain about things, and not only is that not taken into account, but it actually doesn't take into account the few forum posts that actually do like the lab.

And you know this how or it's just a guess? Certainly posts and surveys are self-selected, but how do you know they over-represent critics of the lab rather than under-represent them? For every player posting here about how they don't like the lab, there are many others who feel the same way who aren't posting or who left the game already; and maybe the people who do like the lab are more motivated to come on the forums to defend than the people who have given up on the issue. I doubt that the lab haters are a majority but, who knows, they could be. And if it is a minority it is surely a very substantial one; my guess is it's larger than the group of players that actively like the lab (of which, of course, there are quite a few).

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ShaUrley wrote:

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There is a strong bias in forum posts for people to complain about things, and not only is that not taken into account, but it actually doesn't take into account the few forum posts that actually do like the lab.

And you know this how or it's just a guess? Certainly posts and surveys are self-selected, but how do you know they over-represent critics of the lab rather than under-represent them? For every player posting here about how they don't like the lab, there are many others who feel the same way who aren't posting or who left the game already; and maybe the people who do like the lab are more motivated to come on the forums to defend than the people who have given up on the issue. I doubt that the lab haters are a majority but, who knows, they could be. And if it is a minority it is surely a very substantial one; my guess is it's larger than the group of players that actively like the lab (of which, of course, there are quite a few).

Not going to address the other stuff but what j33bus said isn't wrong. Humans have a propensity to complain about things they don't like in feedback and typically don't do anything if they are at least fine with the product/service up to the range of enjoying it.

This isn't just a video game issue or PoE specific. Humans tend to complain when they are uncomfortable with something because it is loosely related to human survival instincts. Sure bad service at a restaurant or dying to lab traps and what not has nothing to do with real life survival, but that is because humans have been able to transition from survival to pleasure comfort.

Let me ask you: how often do you or your family or people you know leave a feedback card/ ask for a manager/ whatever to praise a waiter or product? Now how many of those same people have you seen vocalize their distaste with something to the same extent? Or go on a rant about how terrible it was, even if not in public?

There is no difference with lab hate/like. Those who at least tolerate the lab don't feel an urge to say anything about it and neither do many people who enjoy it. Those who hate it and want it changed have a hell of a lot more reason to voice their complaints. It is simple logic at that point.

You can't just look at the list of complainers and say "Well with this many threads it is more likely that most people dislike the lab even if they don't post about it." because that isn't how this works in real life or in video games. If there were thousands of threads and posts constantly spamming the forums for GGG to change it I would agree but as it is right now, us saying that the lab complainers are in the minority have more reason to believe we are correct.

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PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

Not going to address the other stuff but what j33bus said isn't wrong. Humans have a propensity to complain about things they don't like in feedback and typically don't do anything if they are at least fine with the product/service up to the range of enjoying it.

The topic here isn't human nature, it's the assumption on the part of many lab defenders that the number of negative threads, anecdotal posts, and negative poll votes don't represent how the majority of players actually feel about the lab. And it is an assumption, whatever claims one might make about the human propensity to complain.

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Let me ask you: how often do you or your family or people you know leave a feedback card/ ask for a manager/ whatever to praise a waiter or product?

As a matter of fact, I had a couple of opportunities to provide feedback just yesterday. One was (a fairly expensive) meal in a restaurant that wasn't terrible but had some problems. A feedback card was provided with the bill, which I did not fill out. The other was a service someone provided me and I left a comment thanking them and telling them they did a good job.

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ShaUrley wrote:

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PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

Not going to address the other stuff but what j33bus said isn't wrong. Humans have a propensity to complain about things they don't like in feedback and typically don't do anything if they are at least fine with the product/service up to the range of enjoying it.

The topic here isn't human nature, it's the assumption on the part of many lab defenders that the number of negative threads, anecdotal posts, and negative poll votes don't represent how the majority of players actually feel about the lab. And it is an assumption, whatever claims one might make about the human propensity to complain.

... Really?

The reason we who support the lab/ are neutral feel that the negative feedback aspects of the lab don't represent the whole community's reaction is directly related to how complaints versus praises have pretty much worked since forever in general. This is how complaints v praises works in real life, there is no assumption, at least not an obvious inaccurate assumption that lab hating works the same way.

If most cases of complaints versus praises suggest that humans have a propensity to complain loudly and give quiet positive feedback and you want to suggest lab hating is an exception you would have to provide some groundwork that the norm isn't the case.

This means that you can't just say "well a ton of people probably stopped playing without saying anything but were in fact sick of the lab." GGG does probably have the information to tell you how many accounts went inactive for a significant amount of time when lab hit. But then you have to account for how many of those accounts did post about the lab, positive or negative, how many didn't. How many of those that didn't came back and resumed without lab complaints, how many left for non lab reasons, whether that be real life issues, finding a new game, etc.

If you are working with the null hypothesis that humans complain loudly and praise softly in most cases of services and products, it is on to you to find evidence to the contrary. We can state with a lot of certainty that it is likely that lab haters are a minority that complain loudly because it is the friggin assumed state of complainers versus praises. We are working with a common, maybe stereotypical view of complainers, but there is at least a lot of non-PoE related evidence to suggest we are correct. We don't have to make assumptions of "maybe people left without posting, maybe people hate it but love the game in general enough to not say anything on the forums".

We can pretty safely assume that the norm is true unless there is actual evidence to the contrary. 200 some threads in a game with thousands of players is not enough evidence to persuade us.