[2.4] CI/LL Blade Vortex Pathfinder

This thread is pretty dead but I just wanted to share my thoughts on changing from Veteran bowyer/Master Herbalist to Master alchemist.

Pretty much this ascendancy path is far superior for bosses, particularly the guardians and shaper for me. That said I don't have skyforth and won't really ever be able to afford them in a temp league. Map clearing isn't a problem but I do miss the poison killing stragglers.

What's the ideal jewel for this, and second/third best?

Just did shaper deathless for the first time I fought him. Feels good. Thanks for the build guide.

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evenson wrote:

This thread is pretty dead but I just wanted to share my thoughts on changing from Veteran bowyer/Master Herbalist to Master alchemist.

Pretty much this ascendancy path is far superior for bosses, particularly the guardians and shaper for me. That said I don't have skyforth and won't really ever be able to afford them in a temp league. Map clearing isn't a problem but I do miss the poison killing stragglers.

Why is it superior? Isn't the only difference, that you can use another unique flask instead of your anti-shock (probably diamond) flask? Is that really worth losing the poison? And how is this actually better for bosses?!

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BundesHeinz wrote:

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evenson wrote:

This thread is pretty dead but I just wanted to share my thoughts on changing from Veteran bowyer/Master Herbalist to Master alchemist.

Pretty much this ascendancy path is far superior for bosses, particularly the guardians and shaper for me. That said I don't have skyforth and won't really ever be able to afford them in a temp league. Map clearing isn't a problem but I do miss the poison killing stragglers.

Why is it superior? Isn't the only difference, that you can use another unique flask instead of your anti-shock (probably diamond) flask? Is that really worth losing the poison? And how is this actually better for bosses?!

I think the difference for me was the chance to not use flask charges, on top of the flask charge every 3 seconds. I might not have enough invested into crit to keep flask charges up 100%. I think I have like 70% with power charges. Once I get skyforth and some better gear I might switch back.

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evenson wrote:

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BundesHeinz wrote:

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evenson wrote:

This thread is pretty dead but I just wanted to share my thoughts on changing from Veteran bowyer/Master Herbalist to Master alchemist.

Pretty much this ascendancy path is far superior for bosses, particularly the guardians and shaper for me. That said I don't have skyforth and won't really ever be able to afford them in a temp league. Map clearing isn't a problem but I do miss the poison killing stragglers.

Why is it superior? Isn't the only difference, that you can use another unique flask instead of your anti-shock (probably diamond) flask? Is that really worth losing the poison? And how is this actually better for bosses?!

I think the difference for me was the chance to not use flask charges, on top of the flask charge every 3 seconds. I might not have enough invested into crit to keep flask charges up 100%. I think I have like 70% with power charges. Once I get skyforth and some better gear I might switch back.

I agree that Nature's Boon is definitely much better for the Guardians / Shaper because you run out of flasks way less often, and if you do you can theoretically run away until they recharge. Not sure if Master Alchemist is worth it over Master Herbalist; you lose a good chunk of damage, but the benefit is you can drop having normal flasks of grounding and of heat to counter shock/freeze respectively. In comparison I hardly ever notice the loss of damage from Veteran Bowyer; it's a noticeable if you're running a budget version with a lightning pen Vinktar and Phys to Lightning Gem, but otherwise it barely matters.

Defensively it is nice since there are a variety of nice defensive options you can use instead on any normal flasks (Armor% is nice in combo with Rumi's, curse immune and poison immune are also nice) or you can swap out normal flasks for Atziri and/or Overflowing Chalice and/or second Vinktar all of which are strong. Hard for me to tell if being able to run Atziri in place of say a Basalt of Grounding is worth the loss of Master Herbalist.

I'll have to test herbalist over alchemist. I don't find that the poison damage was that noticeable but I'll respec and test, for science.

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evenson wrote:

I'll have to test herbalist over alchemist. I don't find that the poison damage was that noticeable but I'll respec and test, for science.

Beyond the stragglers thing you mentioned, by my math Poison does 8% of your physical damage per second over 2 seconds, so 16% total by default; this is then increased 30% by Master Herbalist, and the duration extended to 3 seconds by Potency of Will, and double dips on any 'damage' or 'area damage' nodes or modifiers on jewels. So overall it roughly adds 35% or so of your physical damage against single targets where you are repeatedly hitting them, which is the equivalent of running Hatred... plus most monsters have less Chaos resist than elemental resist.

With the obvious exception of things like Hydra/Chimera which are immune to poison it's a pretty significant DPS boost even without really going to a lot of effort to double dip. I find this to be fairly noticeable when I do the Guardian fights as Minotaur for instance goes down pretty fast, but Chimera and Hydra take a long time.

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SorakPoE wrote:

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evenson wrote:

I'll have to test herbalist over alchemist. I don't find that the poison damage was that noticeable but I'll respec and test, for science.

Beyond the stragglers thing you mentioned, by my math Poison does 8% of your physical damage per second over 2 seconds, so 16% total by default; this is then increased 30% by Master Herbalist, and the duration extended to 3 seconds by Potency of Will, and double dips on any 'damage' or 'area damage' nodes or modifiers on jewels. So overall it roughly adds 35% or so of your physical damage against single targets where you are repeatedly hitting them, which is the equivalent of running Hatred... plus most monsters have less Chaos resist than elemental resist.

With the obvious exception of things like Hydra/Chimera which are immune to poison it's a pretty significant DPS boost even without really going to a lot of effort to double dip. I find this to be fairly noticeable when I do the Guardian fights as Minotaur for instance goes down pretty fast, but Chimera and Hydra take a long time.

Don't forget, that, with conc effect, you also have a moe area dmg modifier on which your poison double dips.

I do have a question for those that don't have Master Alchemist - how do you deal with Hexproof Maps?

My current flask setup for mapping is - Vinktar, Rumi, Diamond of Grounding, Basalt of Heat, and Atziri. I feel like I need the Atziri flask leech to comfortably run Hexproof maps (i.e. no Warlord's Mark leech) - I don't like having to pop Vinktar constantly since it means I could be caught without it up when something unexpected happens. The main downside here clearly is that it doesn't leave room for Taste of Hate, since I also need the anti-shock and anti-freeze flasks as well, and Rumi also seems too good drop. Further even outside of Hexproof maps I run Enfeeble as a curse rather than Warlord's Mark since I don't need the leech and Enfeeble provides greater mitigation than Endurance Charges.

Now that I type it out, I'm wondering if this is simply a better setup. If I had Master Alchemist I'd drop the Basalt for ToH, but gaining the 20% extra damage as cold doesn't seem as good as having the Master Herbalist poison damage unless the enemy is poison immune, and the 20% physical damage converted to cold is probably worse than 20% flat physical reduction from a Basalt.