Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

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mark1030 wrote:

Maybe you missed that their response time in addressing an "outcry" is days when they feel the criticism is justified.

You make a hard statement without proof. Which means from somebody elses POV it is just your opinion.
Also: From what I heard your implied claim about response time is not true (or irrelevant) for the party loot allocation additions made in the past.

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mark1030 wrote:

This lab "outcry" has been there for 6 months. Does that not tell you anything?

Maybe the lab haters were not zealous enough - so more threads and posts are needed to get rid of the lab(*)?

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mark1030 wrote:

Watch ZiggyD's latest video showcasing 5 map boss fights. One of them has the lava environmental effects (ie lava traps).

Do they use trap mechanics or not? If not they are not traps.

(*) I dont actually favour this "remove the lab" solution. Just "hypothetizing"...

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Nykken wrote:

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Various consequences of the trap damage system thematically make no sense. It punishes the players for adding life and/or ES to their character. Its a RPG. Life reflects survivability. But the traps invalidate that. More life => I die faster vs spike trap - assuming I have Armour or some sort of "flat" life recovery.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Maybe the lab haters were not zealous enough - so more threads and posts are needed to get rid of the lab(*)?

If you think vocal anti-Lab cultists will invalidate a whole major expansion, you should think again.

At most GGG could *eventually provide an alternate Ascension method that doesn't include trap gauntlets, but which should be a lot more time consuming to do than running Lab.

(* you are asking them to set aside their current schedule, to work on "fixing Lab" / providing additional content for those who "cant" run a few gauntlets per char)

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morbo wrote:

At most GGG could *eventually provide an alternate Ascension method that doesn't include trap gauntlets

Wouldnt that be a big success for the "anti lab faction"?

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morbo wrote:

(* you are asking them to set aside their current schedule, to work on "fixing Lab" / providing additional content for those who "cant" run a few gauntlets per char)

What I personally dislike most about the lab, in this order:

1) Randomness of Enchantments.
2) Trap mechanics.
3) Currently the balance of trap difficulty vs monster difficulty is like 150%(traps) vs -50%(monsters). I dislike that and it should be changed to at least 50% vs 50%.

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Zrevnur wrote:

3) Currently the balance of trap difficulty vs monster difficulty is like 150%(traps) vs -50%(monsters). I dislike that and it should be changed to at least 50% vs 50%.

Monsters are too weak compared to Izaro, yes.
It's a little bit less true in Uber lab, but they still are pretty weak imho.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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morbo wrote:

At most GGG could *eventually provide an alternate Ascension method that doesn't include trap gauntlets

Wouldnt that be a big success for the "anti lab faction"?

I suppose. I'm not against it, though, any alternative ascension method must be more time consuming or more difficult - to not invalidate the Labyrinth - something GGG worked months to create.

I also agree on enchantments. Really bad implementation imo, should be reworked to not be that brutal RNG, which is currently only useful for trading. At the very least show the enchantment to the player, so that you don't overwrite an already present enchantment with useless crap.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Watch ZiggyD's latest video showcasing 5 map boss fights. One of them has the lava environmental effects (ie lava traps).

Do they use trap mechanics or not? If not they are not traps.
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Maybe you should have watched the video. What do you call floors that turn into lava and switches that can turn them off? Ziggy called them environmental effects.

I love the prophecy in the title:
Lab is Removed by Support.

Coincidence? Unlikely.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

3) Currently the balance of trap difficulty vs monster difficulty is like 150%(traps) vs -50%(monsters). I dislike that and it should be changed to at least 50% vs 50%.

Monsters are too weak compared to Izaro, yes.
It's a little bit less true in Uber lab, but they still are pretty weak imho.

Improving the the strength of the "trash" monsters around the traps would help to switch the focus from trap gameplay back to arpg gameplay. Which would be a good thing. Although there would still be the screens of uninterrupted traps.

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mark1030 wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Watch ZiggyD's latest video showcasing 5 map boss fights. One of them has the lava environmental effects (ie lava traps).

Do they use trap mechanics or not? If not they are not traps.
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Maybe you should have watched the video. What do you call floors that turn into lava and switches that can turn them off? Ziggy called them environmental effects.

The relevant question for me is:
Does the damage from these "environmental effects" use the normal rule set (independent of player) or the trap rule set (%based on player HP/ES)?

(And I didnt watch the video nor do I currently plan to.)

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Tested trap damages some time ago. They do not do "fixed" damage. And I dont see how one could possibly "fairly easy" calculate the expected trap damage. One would need to have damage numbers first. Add in "trap movement pattern rhythm", Sentinels, Poison Darts, blocking Spikes, etc: Obviously this claim is blatantly wrong. There is no way to do this: "fairly easy to calculate if you could just walk through the trap of have to avoid it." If you really think otherwise - why dont you give an example case with a realistic complexity?

They deal a percentage of your HP/ES. This means the same character can stay in the same trap for the same time whenever he encounters it. If the char has no regeneration that is actually true for all chars.

Also my comparison was with mob damage, which is a lot more unreliable, because you can't just calculate your effectiveness of armor on the fly or how often you dodge (well actually you might be just dead if you don't dodge). Traps have a lot less valuables. They deal damage and thats it. And if you can't estimate how long you take to walk through it... well then you shouldn't cross a street.

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I suppose. I'm not against it, though, any alternative ascension method must be more time consuming or more difficult - to not invalidate the Labyrinth - something GGG worked months to create.

I also agree on enchantments. Really bad implementation imo, should be reworked to not be that brutal RNG, which is currently only useful for trading. At the very least show the enchantment to the player, so that you don't overwrite an already present enchantment with useless crap.

Exspecially with some new implicits on enchantable items, the enchantments just suck. They could outright remove the minion ones, because nobody will go for them if they can get a safe 40% minion damage. This would also make it a tiny bit easier for players that don't have a helmet for them.

I'm also fairly certain that ascending isn't limited to the lab forever. Or maybe they make the lab gradually easier, since once they add new content they want people to shift to that, away from older stuff. They did that with corrupted areas and likely do it with the lab. They could end the normal lab after the first Izaro and the cruel one after the second and that would already safe a lot of time while also making a lot of sense from a progression perspective.