Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

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Emphasy wrote:

I'm also fairly certain that ascending isn't limited to the lab forever. Or maybe they make the lab gradually easier, since once they add new content they want people to shift to that, away from older stuff. They did that with corrupted areas and likely do it with the lab. They could end the normal lab after the first Izaro and the cruel one after the second and that would already safe a lot of time while also making a lot of sense from a progression perspective.

Not sure what making labyrinth gradually easier might mean? My main problem with screens full of traps is that trap gameplay is not fun, not that it is too hard. Right now traps tend to ignore level, if by making them gradually easier you mean changing that then some complaints might be mitigated?

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Turtledove wrote:

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Emphasy wrote:

I'm also fairly certain that ascending isn't limited to the lab forever. Or maybe they make the lab gradually easier, since once they add new content they want people to shift to that, away from older stuff. They did that with corrupted areas and likely do it with the lab. They could end the normal lab after the first Izaro and the cruel one after the second and that would already safe a lot of time while also making a lot of sense from a progression perspective.

Not sure what making labyrinth gradually easier might mean? My main problem with screens full of traps is that trap gameplay is not fun, not that it is too hard. Right now traps tend to ignore level, if by making them gradually easier you mean changing that then some complaints might be mitigated?

I did put an example what it could mean. Normal Lab stops at first Izaro, Cruel at second Izaro, that would basically remove an entire lab.

Also if trap gameplay is not hard but unfun... it is literally the tiniest part of the lab. Most of it is fighting mobs like always, the second most time is likely spent with watching izaro going in and out of the arena, the third most time is spent on fighting izaro and the least time is spent with traps. And some traps are even hard to be called that. The Lava floor you can literally just LW over is hardly a trap. Maybe you spent even less time on traps than waiting in front of doors with traps to open again. And considering that people likely look up the lab if they don't like it to speed up the process they can even avoid doing the lab when they have to open golden doors (since that means 2 more trap segments, although they can mostly be ignored and just walked past, they are not that punishing).

There are still a lot of people I assume that don't like parts of the story progression. But you just get through with it. And it often takes a lot longer than those 3 lab runs.


The thing with traps is, they are so easy to just pass with LW or Blink Arrow that they are hardly an argument. If you don't like them, warp over them. There are very few gauntlets that don't allow that. Trails are different, but the Uber lab is an optional part, much like Uber. If you don't like it, stay away from it.

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Emphasy wrote:

They deal a percentage of your HP/ES. This means the same character can stay in the same trap for the same time whenever he encounters it. If the char has no regeneration that is actually true for all chars.

Obviously you have not actually tested this yourself. As I said I tested it (in Perandus IIRC) - the damage variance is significant. I also tested one of the phys degen traps. It also did different amounts of damage per pass - at least at the end of its route. I do not know why nor do I particulary care. But these are the results which I derived from testing.

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Emphasy wrote:

And if you can't estimate how long you take to walk through it... well then you shouldn't cross a street.

You used the word "calculate". Now you talk of "estimate". Yes for people who have done lots of lab runs - they can probably "estimate" whether they can get through a trap area or not. But there is no sane way I can think of to easily calculate the damage that traps will do.

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Also my comparison was with mob damage, which is a lot more unreliable, because you can't just calculate your effectiveness of armor on the fly or how often you dodge (well actually you might be just dead if you don't dodge). Traps have a lot less valuables. They deal damage and thats it. And if you can't estimate how long you take to walk through it... well then you shouldn't cross a street.

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You used the word "calculate". Now you talk of "estimate". Yes for people who have done lots of lab runs - they can probably "estimate" whether they can get through a trap area or not. But there is no sane way I can think of to easily calculate the damage that traps will do.

I used calculate but not for the traps. It might have been misleading, since I didn't actually say anything about the trap damage, just that there are less valuables. And even then, Trap damage would be easier to calculate, but I agree still too hard.

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Obviously you have not actually tested this yourself. As I said I tested it (in Perandus IIRC) - the damage variance is significant. I also tested one of the phys degen traps. It also did different amounts of damage per pass - at least at the end of its route. I do not know why nor do I particulary care. But these are the results which I derived from testing.

Well but not for one character. Unless maybe Fortify is a variance, since it might run out (and only helps against certain traps.

Most traps use Dots, which are hard to mitigate, Immortal Call, Endurance Charges etc. do reduce the damage somewhat, but IC is not long enough mostly to run through without Charges, and unless you keep a mob alive to charge up you might not have any. Basalt Flasks also help I assume, since they do the same. But again the same character takes the same amount of damage. Although running out of charges or the Flask ending could happen in between. Most character specific stats do not help though, so the estimate is even the same on different characters, since the only skillable defence is the 4% physical mitigation and some ascendancy things.

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Emphasy wrote:

I used calculate but not for the traps. It might have been misleading, since I didn't actually say anything about the trap damage,

I was referring to the following quote in one of your older postings:

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Emphasy wrote:

The thing is since they deal fixed damage it is also fairly easy to calculate if you could just walk through the trap of have to avoid it.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well but not for one character. Unless maybe Fortify is a variance, since it might run out (and only helps against certain traps.

Most traps use Dots, which are hard to mitigate, Immortal Call, Endurance Charges etc. do reduce the damage somewhat, but IC is not long enough mostly to run through without Charges, and unless you keep a mob alive to charge up you might not have any. Basalt Flasks also help I assume, since they do the same. But again the same character takes the same amount of damage. Although running out of charges or the Flask ending could happen in between. Most character specific stats do not help though, so the estimate is even the same on different characters, since the only skillable defence is the 4% physical mitigation and some ascendancy things.

I just tested 2 trap types:

a) Spike traps. They always did exactly the same amount of damage. This is inconsistent with my old results. I do not know if they changed it or if I screwed up those past testings.

b) Sawblades. I placed my char at the end of a sawblade route. In some passes I took ~1000 EHP damage (probably always the same value). In other passes I took no damage at all. I stood still the whole time not doing anything. No fortify nor endurance charges. Just normal ES recharge. So I either took ~1000 damage or took no damage at all. I think there was some repeating pattern to it. 2 consecutive passes which damaged, then 1 or 2 consecutive passes which did no damage. Visually it looked like I would surely take damage because I stood on the traps path. But in many of the passes the game did not agree with that.

Also vs phys degen traps: Chaos Golem (+helm enchantment), Kintsugi, Arctic Armour (+helm enchantment). Edit: also Leo craft - one of the strongest actually

Too bad Lab isn't removed by support. Good title though.

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Zrevnur wrote:

1) Randomness of Enchantments.
2) Trap mechanics.
3) Currently the balance of trap difficulty vs monster difficulty is like 150%(traps) vs -50%(monsters). I dislike that and it should be changed to at least 50% vs 50%.

1) Everything is random, welcome to Path of Exile. You either roll a million times or just buy an item with the rolls you want.
2) Don't stand in them and the damage formula doesn't matter. The damage formula is as it is for reasons related to your next point.
3) That's only because a long gauntlet means most players will overlevel before running lab to minimize the chances of failure. If you go into lab at-level or underleveled then the monsters are just as threatening as the traps. The trap damage scaling with Health/ES accomplishes two things:
3a) Overleveling lab doesn't make it into an effortless facetank-fest, you still need to at least pay mild attention to the traps for about 10-20% of the run
3b) Underlevel runs are still reasonably possible for players who are trying to rush and/or want an extra challenge. If traps were to have damage values that are threatening to players when they typically go into lab, then lower level characters with less EHP would die in an instant to traps.

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Nykken wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

1) Randomness of Enchantments.
2) Trap mechanics.
3) Currently the balance of trap difficulty vs monster difficulty is like 150%(traps) vs -50%(monsters). I dislike that and it should be changed to at least 50% vs 50%.

1) Everything is random, welcome to Path of Exile. You either roll a million times or just buy an item with the rolls you want.
2) Don't stand in them and the damage formula doesn't matter. The damage formula is as it is for reasons related to your next point.
3) That's only because a long gauntlet means most players will overlevel before running lab to minimize the chances of failure. If you go into lab at-level or underleveled then the monsters are just as threatening as the traps. The trap damage scaling with Health/ES accomplishes two things:
3a) Overleveling lab doesn't make it into an effortless facetank-fest, you still need to at least pay mild attention to the traps for about 10-20% of the run
3b) Underlevel runs are still reasonably possible for players who are trying to rush and/or want an extra challenge. If traps were to have damage values that are threatening to players when they typically go into lab, then lower level characters with less EHP would die in an instant to traps.

Obviously one can come up with some causality as to why traps and enchantments work the way they do. In no way does that change my attitude towards them. Nor does it mean that GGG could not have come up with a scheme which does not bypass the normal rule set. IMO they simply dont have the "balls" for fixing the problems which the game has. But they are aware of these problems. So their "solution" is to basically make a new game (the trap rule set) inside the old game to provide what they consider a "more fair challenge".

And in the uber lab being "overleveled" (when doing enchantment runs) is practically unavoidable even if one would want extra challenge. The monster vs traps balance estimate was mostly based on my experiences in uber lab runs.
Furthermore: Even if I want extra challenge: If the mobs in the labyrinth are any problem at all then I will probably be murdered by Izaro. There is too much difference in power between Izaro and random mobs in the labyrinth.

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Zrevnur wrote:

There is too much difference in power between Izaro and random mobs in the labyrinth.

One is a boss that has enrage factors if you ignore or complete the challenge improperly or you do\don't want him buffed. The other are level 75 mobs. How can level 75 mobs without map mods possibly be challenging?

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Zrevnur wrote:

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Nykken wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

1) Randomness of Enchantments.
2) Trap mechanics.
3) Currently the balance of trap difficulty vs monster difficulty is like 150%(traps) vs -50%(monsters). I dislike that and it should be changed to at least 50% vs 50%.

1) Everything is random, welcome to Path of Exile. You either roll a million times or just buy an item with the rolls you want.
2) Don't stand in them and the damage formula doesn't matter. The damage formula is as it is for reasons related to your next point.
3) That's only because a long gauntlet means most players will overlevel before running lab to minimize the chances of failure. If you go into lab at-level or underleveled then the monsters are just as threatening as the traps. The trap damage scaling with Health/ES accomplishes two things:
3a) Overleveling lab doesn't make it into an effortless facetank-fest, you still need to at least pay mild attention to the traps for about 10-20% of the run
3b) Underlevel runs are still reasonably possible for players who are trying to rush and/or want an extra challenge. If traps were to have damage values that are threatening to players when they typically go into lab, then lower level characters with less EHP would die in an instant to traps.

Obviously one can come up with some causality as to why traps and enchantments work the way they do. In no way does that change my attitude towards them. Nor does it mean that GGG could not have come up with a scheme which does not bypass the normal rule set. IMO they simply dont have the "balls" for fixing the problems which the game has. But they are aware of these problems. So their "solution" is to basically make a new game (the trap rule set) inside the old game to provide what they consider a "more fair challenge".

And in the uber lab being "overleveled" (when doing enchantment runs) is practically unavoidable even if one would want extra challenge. The monster vs traps balance estimate was mostly based on my experiences in uber lab runs.
Furthermore: Even if I want extra challenge: If the mobs in the labyrinth are any problem at all then I will probably be murdered by Izaro. There is too much difference in power between Izaro and random mobs in the labyrinth.

If you're complaining about uber lab then you're complaining about content that is 100% optional. The arguably non-optional labs are normal/cruel/merciless because those first few ascendancy points are what really matter.

If you want uber lab enchants, you can just buy the items. Not every build is Atziri viable and people are fine with their characters simply not being built to farm Atziri, many players don't want to deal with the complex systems and RNG involved in crafting items and they're fine with simply paying raw currency for items that someone else has made, lab is no different.