Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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Turtledove wrote:

The lists are now up to 353 threads and 943 account names.

Since the 3.0 release the rate for number of posts and new threads about labyrinth has dropped.

The change you're mentioning isn't necessarily because lab became less widely disliked / hated.

Among those who have played for a while, most of those who wanted to post about their disappointment / frustration with lab have probably already done it. At this point, it will mostly be newer players who post about their dislike or hatred of lab.

Also, at this point GGG is probably very much hoping that lab dies down as a topic among streamers and on the forums. I doubt they'll say very much about it in the near to medium term, given that every time they do they get an earful from a lot of players.

You're still doing a service to the game, though, and thank you for doing it.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

The change you're mentioning isn't necessarily because lab became less widely disliked / hated.

I'm thinking most of those just moved on to Kitava.

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

The change you're mentioning isn't necessarily because lab became less widely disliked / hated.

I'm thinking most of those just moved on to Kitava.

I tend to agree that whatever seems most immediately irritating probably will be the focus for many. And, not being able to get to maps until clearing a particular boss is a new game feature.

I'm not certain that changes players opinions of lab for the better, though, especially over the longer run.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

I'm not certain that changes players opinions of lab for the better, though, especially over the longer run.

I'm no expert in consumer psychology but they say it helps a bit, your dislike level is composed of actual frustration and attention bonus, which can be low or high, based on your level of subjectivity. If your attention gets focused somewhere else the dislike level generally drops, that's the way damage control in politics usually works.

Kitava might become less of a problem and if nothing else pops out the attention would probably drift back to lab for some. I can't really remember a time when PoE didn't have some kind of huge burning issue to complain about, though.

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

I'm not certain that changes players opinions of lab for the better, though, especially over the longer run.

I'm no expert in consumer psychology but they say it helps a bit, your dislike level is composed of actual frustration and attention bonus, which can be low or high, based on your level of subjectivity. If your attention gets focused somewhere else the dislike level generally drops, that's the way damage control in politics usually works.

Kitava might become less of a problem and if nothing else pops out the attention would probably drift back to lab for some. I can't really remember a time when PoE didn't have some kind of huge burning issue to complain about, though.

I think the "frustration + attention bonus" characterization has a grain of truth, but that it oversimplifies what comes together to form dislike. You can have aesthetic reasons for disliking something that may have little to do with frustration per se, or for which frustration is a byproduct of the dislike, and not really a source of dislike. Plus, frustration will tend to have a qualitatively different character depending on the source and intensity of the frustration.

What's telling in the case of lab is that every time GGG makes some kind of public statement, an outpouring of negativity from a lot of players follows shortly afterward. So, this clearly isn't the kind of dislike or hatred that dies down over time. And, even when GGG isn't making public pronouncements you get players who seldom post at all coming onto the forums to speak about their frustration and disappointment with lab.

Sure, frustration isn't exactly the right term, some people have aesthetic reasons for disliking Trump :)

Ever met a person with some kind of a visual flaw that bothered you for some reason and after spending a lot of time together you stopped noticing it? That's kinda similar, your attention shifted elsewhere and it stopped being much of an issue, the man's nose certainly didn't get smaller.

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raics wrote:

Sure, frustration isn't exactly the right term, some people have aesthetic reasons for disliking Trump :)

Ever met a person with some kind of a visual flaw that bothered you for some reason and after spending a lot of time together you stopped noticing it? That's kinda similar, your attention shifted elsewhere and it stopped being much of an issue, the man's nose certainly didn't get smaller.

You're accidentally pointing out what makes lab exceptional.

GGG waited over a year from lab's release to put up a dev manifesto about it, which was plenty of time for lab to stop being much of an issue and ample time for those who really didn't like it to leave (which has to even further reduce the volume and intensity of complaints GGG would receive by publicly speaking about lab).

And yet, they still got hit with a firehose of negative feedback after posting the manifesto. Plus, multiple streamers (who GGG depend upon to help with their marketing) still don't like lab and aren't shy about saying that, when the topic comes up.

I think actually the improvements to Lab some time ago really helped and addressed most key issues with it - especially that even the normal one was too brutal for new players, and that it felt really unrewarding item-wise (now with the lockboxes, it's much better).

Personally I never really had that much issue with the traps which aren't a huge problem even for me with my pretty potato reflexes. My main problem was always Izaro and that he feels too powerful and unforgiving - for the most part, the only way to deal with him is to outlevel the Lab to the point the regular monsters are a walk in the park, which is not good balance.

Otherwise, you risk a very high chance of getting one-shot at the slightest mistake and having to repeat over, which is not fun. I actually kinda enjoy the Lab now as it is indeed something different, but Izaro could use an overhaul - I'm pretty sure there'd be a way to change his design so that he's still challenging and painful, but more in a consistent damage way than "oops, you didn't dodge that one barrage? Bye 3k HP". Just good skill is not good enough, I can dodge everything he uses 99% of the time at this point, but just one mistake can make 40 minutes of the Lab go to hell.