Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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mark1030 wrote:

There are currently 192 PAGES of topics in General Discussion forum since the lab was added. And you act like 200 threads means something? There are 30 threads on a page. Which means there are over 10,000 threads in those 337 pages. So who is doing the illogical thinking? Your evidence is 2% of threads in those 2 forums are about the lab.

So, to ask for a logically equivalent comparison, what other topics have occupied 2% of those threads with complaints, or even one thread with 189 pages of responses?

Well ggg very rarely post in this section of the forums, personally i dont believe they have an aim to change the lab.

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mark1030 wrote:
There are currently 192 PAGES of topics in General Discussion forum since the lab was added. And you act like 200 threads means something? There are 30 threads on a page. Which means there are over 10,000 threads in those 337 pages. So who is doing the illogical thinking? Your evidence is 2% of threads in those 2 forums are about the lab.

lab seems about as popular a subject as other highly contested things in the game, prob something like trading gets similar attention, and the forums seem to heat up after nerf announcements.
Anecdotally i would say lab is popular with a small group of players who actively play it (and without large rewards that no doubt would be much smaller), myself and a large section simply dont really care much, and some % hate it or perhaps cant do it etc.

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ShaUrley wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

There are currently 192 PAGES of topics in General Discussion forum since the lab was added. And you act like 200 threads means something? There are 30 threads on a page. Which means there are over 10,000 threads in those 337 pages. So who is doing the illogical thinking? Your evidence is 2% of threads in those 2 forums are about the lab.

So, to ask for a logically equivalent comparison, what other topics have occupied 2% of those threads with complaints, or even one thread with 189 pages of responses?

Death Penalty :P
Melee Sucks
Legacy Items/No Legacy Items
Trading Sucks

I'm not sure they are all 200 threads, and honestly not everyone is stupid enough to make a new thread if another one is at the top of the current page that is about exactly the same thing.

Exspecially the melee issue was in one thread for a rather long time so it likely has less threads, but that is mostly because everybody agrees on that one and it evolves more about identifying the most pressing issues for Melees.

In most of those Lab threads there isn't actually much discussion and a lot of posts actually struggling with even naming the precise issue they have with the lab, you can't just say everything sucks, since this would mean we should remove all enemies from the game... because those suck in the lab, why shouldn't they suck outside.

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Turtledove wrote:

This talk of alt accounts is silly. There is no point except to demonstrate lack of critical thinking. No point except, the bogey man is out to get you. There is not a shred of evidence only scary bogey man talk. First there were silly statements that the 200 threads were created by just a "handful" of authors creating all those threads. When that was proven wrong then this silly alt accounts came up. Grasping at straws, it's simply grasping at straws.

It's a distraction tactic. These bizarre accusations are brought up by people who don't want to answer the question "Why is the Labyrinth as unpopular as it is?" and therefore try and discredit any suggestion that the Labyrinth isn't popular, so that there is no (figurative) space in the thread to address that question.

They don't actually think that the Labyrinth is popular; most of them are too intelligent to believe that. But they personally enjoy it for whatever reasons (profits due to the fact that many people don't want to run it and so there isn't much competition is a likely candidate, and I also think some people genuinely enjoy the gameplay per se) and therefore don't want to accept any statement which might threaten that status quo.

You would have to be a stubborn imbecile (or be wearing REALLY rose-tinted glasses) to believe that the Labyrinth has zero issues. The five or so people who make up the dominating voice of Labyrinth defense in these threads (and they know who they are) may be stubborn, but they are not imbeciles. Rather, they are writing from a place of fear. Let's try and be sympathetic to that.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

This talk of alt accounts is silly. There is no point except to demonstrate lack of critical thinking. No point except, the bogey man is out to get you. There is not a shred of evidence only scary bogey man talk. First there were silly statements that the 200 threads were created by just a "handful" of authors creating all those threads. When that was proven wrong then this silly alt accounts came up. Grasping at straws, it's simply grasping at straws.

It's a distraction tactic. These bizarre accusations are brought up by people who don't want to answer the question "Why is the Labyrinth as unpopular as it is?" and therefore try and discredit any suggestion that the Labyrinth isn't popular, so that there is no (figurative) space in the thread to address that question.

They don't actually think that the Labyrinth is popular; most of them are too intelligent to believe that. But they personally enjoy it for whatever reasons (profits due to the fact that many people don't want to run it and so there isn't much competition is a likely candidate, and I also think some people genuinely enjoy the gameplay per se) and therefore don't want to accept any statement which might threaten that status quo.

You would have to be a stubborn imbecile (or be wearing REALLY rose-tinted glasses) to believe that the Labyrinth has zero issues. The five or so people who make up the dominating voice of Labyrinth defense in these threads (and they know who they are) may be stubborn, but they are not imbeciles. Rather, they are writing from a place of fear. Let's try and be sympathetic to that.

When the Lab defense arguments boil down to:



Distraction is all they have left.

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Emphasy wrote:

Especially the melee issue was in one thread for a rather long time so it likely has less threads.

There are several issues that have attracted plenty of responses on the PoE forums, but I'm pretty sure the lab has attracted the highest volume. Are there 200+ melee-sucks threads, or even one melee-sucks thread with 189+ pages? You can claim the lab-sucks threads are stupid threads, as many do, but the original post was dismissing the 2% volume as meaningless.

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In most of those Lab threads there isn't actually much discussion and a lot of posts actually struggling with even naming the precise issue they have with the lab.

Lots of posters specify the precise issues they have with the lab.

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You would have to be a stubborn imbecile (or be wearing REALLY rose-tinted glasses) to believe that the Labyrinth has zero issues. The five or so people who make up the dominating voice of Labyrinth defense in these threads (and they know who they are) may be stubborn, but they are not imbeciles. Rather, they are writing from a place of fear. Let's try and be sympathetic to that.

The lab has almost no issues for anyone willing to learn new content, however that being said I can understand or see why the trap gameplay might not be fun to all.

Chris addressed this in his statement that it can be good to have decisive content in the game, as long as the reward is worth it in the end and it very much is. However, that being said I'm willing to split hairs and say if you don't like trap gameplay that much, you shouldn't be forced to deal with it (as much). I like the idea of a lab where you select more trap based (like now) or more puzzle\maze like in the starting zone, kinda the scales of balance.

A) No this won't address trials, but those are done once per league.
B) No this won't remove traps from the last room, because that is part of the challenge and there hasn't been a good suggestion on how to make the last boss fight more challenging if the traps were removed.
C) No this won't address the issue of dcing, but you can DC in the rest of the game and lose progress as well. The content is designed and very much possible in 1 sitting in a reasonable amount of time.
D) No this won't let you portal out to refill pots or to cheese the content.
E) This doesn't really address uber lab either, given the fact that part of what makes this lab more difficult is the new traps, there hasn't been an alternative suggested for the maze like lab version.

Keep in mind ideally the trap based one would be faster and more deadly and the puzzle\maze one would be much slower, but still challenging.


I'm open to discussing this type of change to the lab, because I feel like its the most likely to happen from GGG if we could get some good ideas fleshed out, I tried to discuss this in the massive lab thread but unoriginal and non thought out post like "lab sucks" and general QQ made it impossible.

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Lots of posters specify the precise issues they have with the lab.

Some of these are due to lack of experience, some of these are due to lack of wanting to do anything new, some of these are due to monkey see monkey do, just complain because they wanna level 10+ characters a league and don't want to put any work into it.

There are some complaints that could be addressed, but similar to trade complaints you need to be able to filter out what is just general QQ from what is well thought out and experienced feedback.

Distraction? What about the distraction of including resolved issues in the list of lab problems? Like the ones that complain about having to do the trials with each character? They changed it so you only have to do them once per league. So why are those threads included as proof the lab needs fixing? Or the damage CI characters take from traps? They changed it so those characters only take 60% of the damage they were taking before. There is still a valid argument for hybrid builds, but when your proof includes complaints that were addressed, it looks like you're trying to make it look like your trying to deceive people into thinking that 200 thread number means something. Somebody already showed that at least 20 of those threads were not from unique posters. (Maybe more but they stopped looking agter the first 130 threads). Now subtract out the ones that GGG modified the game to address. Stop dismissing scrutiny of all this "proof" as a distraction.

There are only three unique arguments I've seen in all those threads:
I hate traps (they don't belong in arpg, they are frogger, they do too much damage, etc.)
I hate getting killed by the boss (he hits too hard and one shots me)
Performance issues make it impossible (disconnects and fps are a problem).

The third issue is the only one that's not subjective and is truely something GGG should take seriously.

I've been playing for a long time. When Dominus was added, there were lots of complaints he was too hard. When Malachai was added, there were lots of complaints he was too hard. Everytime they add something hard, there are people complaining. Then when the next thing gets added, those complaints kinda go away. When the Act 5 boss gets added, people will have something else to complain about and the lab complaints will fall by the wayside.

The list is the list of threads where the OP was discussing problems with the labyrinth. With the exception of threads where the OP was primarily concerned with Izaro or Enchants. I didn't include those two topics because I consider those two topics more "typical" complaints that one would expect from new content.

It is true that the ES problem with traps have been somewhat mitigated and some of the worst technical problems introduced in the release have been fixed. I consider those thread very important to the overall picture because in my view labyrinth and the release was horribly designed and poorly tested. Those problems are obvious supporting examples of that point of view. While GGG has fixed some of the problems, there are still more that need to be fixed.

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mark1030 wrote:

There are only three unique arguments I've seen in all those threads:
I hate traps (they don't belong in arpg, they are frogger, they do too much damage, etc.)
I hate getting killed by the boss (he hits too hard and one shots me)
Performance issues make it impossible (disconnects and fps are a problem).

The third issue is the only one that's not subjective and is truely something GGG should take seriously.

Don't forget the fact that their failed idea to shoehorn racing into the damn thing means they had to dumb down what it could have been to fit within that constraint.

Also, though this is admittedly subjective, the points are too powerful to be as easily obtained as they are. Imo that's where this 'I want points easier' entitlement comes from. GGG should have designed them to be a long term aspiration so people wouldn't feel entitled to them, like people don't feel entitled to top tier uniques. If they didn't have to make the lab easy enough to race they could have done this.

The lab as designed does fail on many levels unfortunately.