The Ascendency Labyrinth - My Conclusions so far and how to solve the Problem!

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Turtledove wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

But doing plattforming with mouse/keyboard is just a plain hell to me.

Then I guess it's a good thing that's something we don't have to deal with in PoE.

Did you even read the definition of a platform game? :)

When people say "doing plattforming with mouse/keyboard is just a plain hell to me", they mean that to them the trap game play in labyrinth has the same feeling to them as when they play platformer games and that the lack of control that they are used to when playing a platformer with a gaming controller and then trying to play what feels like the same kind of game play is very frustrating when dealing with the labyrinth traps.

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Jimmy Two Times...

Really failing to see how anything in PoE makes anyone "feel" like they are platforming.

Can you point me toward the platforms and show me where the jump button is please?

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Shovelcut wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Jimmy Two Times...

Really failing to see how anything in PoE makes anyone "feel" like they are platforming.

Can you point me toward the platforms and show me where the jump button is please?

You're welcome.

Personally, I most frequently use the blink arrow skill for my jumps. Instead of actual platforms, GGG has instead replaced that with dark shadows, horrible visibility, irritating grinding gear noises, unclear paths going across multiple screens with dead ends or other unwanted things at the end, and stupid levers all over the place that make unknown changes to the whole horrible mess.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Jimmy Two Times...

Really failing to see how anything in PoE makes anyone "feel" like they are platforming.

Can you point me toward the platforms and show me where the jump button is please?

You're welcome.

Personally, I most frequently use the blink arrow skill for my jumps. Instead of actual platforms, GGG has instead replaced that with dark shadows, horrible visibility, irritating grinding gear noises, unclear paths going across multiple screens with dead ends or other unwanted things at the end, and stupid levers all over the place that make unknown changes to the whole horrible mess.

So, no platforms you have to jump to and no in-built jump button...

Can we agree there is nothing platformer-like in PoE then? :)

Why won't guys explore the PoE-is-the-sequel-to-D2-therefore-no-traps argument?

Is it because that has less oomph than the 'wtf I came here to play a r peegee not candy crush' argument? Yeah, that's the problem with mature, reasoned arguments, they're markedly lacking in pizazz.

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Shovelcut wrote:

Then I guess it's a good thing that's something we don't have to deal with in PoE.

Did you even read the definition of a platform game? :)

Shovelcut, seriously... You know what people mean. Cut the crap with the definition of what plattforming is, because you know exactly what people are frustrated about. Call if plattformer, call it arcade or call it whatever you want, it's still a fact that the big trap parts in the labyrinth are an entire new gameplay compared to the classic way to play PoE. You can't fight the traps, you can't destroy them and they deal true damage to your health pool. Most people who play games where they have to dodge stuff like traps do so with the controler. Even Gauntlet, an aRPG played with controler, doesn't have so many traps in sequence.

But if you want to go on with your plattformer definition:
- You can "jump" around with Lightning Warp, Leap Slam, Flame Dash, Whirlingstrike, Blink Arrow and so on
- You can "run" when needed when using a Quicksilver Flask
- Your "plattforms" are the save-spots with no trap damage. If there are multiple pit traps in sequence, you have to go on one pit-plattform after another in order to avoid damage and get through the lab or you have to get from one save plattform to another when crossing huge lava pools.

So yeah, it's kinda a Jump'n Run, but built and "optimized" for mouse/keyboard. And even if you don't agree with this, it won't help anyone if you deny this. It won't help those who don't like the lab. It won't help those who think the lab is an entire different game (no matter what genre you may call it).

So please stop derailing this thread just because you are in favour for the lab and don't want anything changed (your signature says it all...). If you have nothing constructive to add then I suggest you can stop wasting your and our time here.

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AceNightfire wrote:

But if you want to go on with your plattformer definition:
- You can "jump" around with Lightning Warp, Leap Slam, Flame Dash, Whirlingstrike, Blink Arrow and so on
- You can "run" when needed when using a Quicksilver Flask

The keyword here is "can", it's not required nor is it something every build can take advantage of. I've got a summoner with no movement skills that can manage the laby just fine on any difficulty in 15 minutes or less, 25 tops if it's a shitty layout with 2+ gold doors.

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AceNightfire wrote:

So please stop derailing this thread just because you are in favour for the lab and don't want anything changed (your signature says it all...). If you have nothing constructive to add then I suggest you can stop wasting your and our time here.

Actually, had you read my response to the OP on the second page you'd know that I'm fully behind your suggestion. Any changes that make it more accessible for more players are fully welcome. Especially if it helps those with high ping.

I sympathize really, but in my eyes the entire "it's a different game/genre" argument is a cop out. Laby hasn't changed the gameplay, it still is the same game. We're still manually dodging death threats and avoiding things on the ground that may kill us. Perhaps I'm biased because I embrace the newness and change of pace that the laby offers, but I don't see the traps as any different than a pack of powerful crits rhoas charging at me or a patch of degen on the ground (that I can't see).

I'll stand by and fervently defend my position on this because just about every use of the 'game/genre argument' basically boils down to someone either playing a subpar build for the laby (and unwilling to adapt) or just not good at character positioning. And these 2 reasons absolutely should not justify changing the laby, but there should be something done for those with shitty ping. I feel as though your suggestion in the OP would possibly be a way to accomplish this. If it serves a dual purpose by allowing more players to enjoy the content, all the better. IMHO, of course. :P

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Shovelcut wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

But if you want to go on with your plattformer definition:
- You can "jump" around with Lightning Warp, Leap Slam, Flame Dash, Whirlingstrike, Blink Arrow and so on
- You can "run" when needed when using a Quicksilver Flask

The keyword here is "can", it's not required nor is it something every build can take advantage of. I've got a summoner with no movement skills that can manage the laby just fine on any difficulty in 15 minutes or less, 25 tops if it's a shitty layout with 2+ gold doors.

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AceNightfire wrote:

So please stop derailing this thread just because you are in favour for the lab and don't want anything changed (your signature says it all...). If you have nothing constructive to add then I suggest you can stop wasting your and our time here.

Actually, had you read my response to the OP on the second page you'd know that I'm fully behind your suggestion. Any changes that make it more accessible for more players are fully welcome. Especially if it helps those with high ping.

The problem is just, that it doesn't help this thread to discuss if you count the trap parts from the lab as a platformer or not. It will be a discussion of many pages that will end in both positions to "agree to disagree" (in the best case). Other threads already suffered alot from those kind of discussions that won't help solving the whole issue with the lab (at least the issues that some have with it).

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Shovelcut wrote:

I sympathize really, but in my eyes the entire "it's a different game/genre" argument is a cop out. Laby hasn't changed the gameplay, it still is the same game. We're still manually dodging death threats and avoiding things on the ground that may kill us. Perhaps I'm biased because I embrace the newness and change of pace that the laby offers, but I don't see the traps as any different than a pack of powerful crits rhoas charging at me or a patch of degen on the ground (that I can't see).

If I'm not good at dodging crit rhoas, I can still use blasphemy + enfeeble + temporal chains + high armor. I can use a quicksilver flask and only need to dodge them once. Or I can use ice wall to cut off their way. Or I can kill them before they reach me. Or I use a taunting totem. All those options are not possible with traps. I can't stop the traps, I can't kill them, I can't run around them and need to manually walk through some of the lab trap parts and building tanky or using curses won't help me much, since they deal true damage. So no, it's not the same thing as fighting mobs. If it would really be the same gameplaywise, people wouldn't complain, would they? I mean, it would practically be the same for them and therefore no problem to finish the lab at all. But we know that it's not that easy, sadly.

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Shovelcut wrote:

I'll stand by and fervently defend my position on this because just about every use of the 'game/genre argument' basically boils down to someone either playing a subpar build for the laby (and unwilling to adapt) or just not good at character positioning. And these 2 reasons absolutely should not justify changing the laby, but there should be something done for those with shitty ping. I feel as though your suggestion in the OP would possibly be a way to accomplish this. If it serves a dual purpose by allowing more players to enjoy the content, all the better. IMHO, of course. :P

Well, but the lab is all about positioning and speed. What about all the other options I mentioned above? PoE offers many playstyles. I for example hate being squishy and losing 70% of health when getting hit by a single thing and therefore I built a super tanky flame totem marauder that uses enfeeble aura. He is lvl 76 and can stand still in cruel malachai fight and can facetank daresso/kaom merciless if I want. This may sound boring to some people, maybe some would even call me skillless, but that was the good thing about poe: I had the CHOICE to play the game like I want to and still could accomplish everything (like killing Atziri etc.). If I prefer a save and slow tanky build, why not? I have fun with that. But the lab forces me to build something fast that uses mobility skills. And it also forces me to position myself very accuratly and quite often many times per second to dodge/survive traps. And I guess many people are like me who don't want to be forced into something just to get the AC points. The AC points don't make the lab optional and that's the whole problem about it.

Well, THIS thread has gone off the rails... but I think I'll post this anyway.

When I saw the description of the Labyrinth (I came back at the end and read all about it before jumping in), I expected a few things:

1) A little more in the way of puzzles (dodge a few traps to get to a switch that TURNS OFF the huge gauntlet of traps

2) Dealing with packs of monsters with a few traps in the room (there are a few rooms like this)

3) When I read that the labyrinth layout remained the same for an entire day, I also expected the trap layout to remain the same.

4) I expected the traps to be heavier around the treasure areas and MUCH lighter on the main paths.


The problem that I have with the current version of the labyrinth is that there isn't any way to get around or easily navigate the huge trap gauntlets. I mentioned once that I ran into a room that looked like it barfed up 5 different trap rooms into the same space. There were NO safe spots and the gauntlet took up over 4 screens (I dunno how much bigger it was because I died at that point)

The first area was parallel sawblades with dart traps that led into a room with alternating sawblades and rotating spike towers, followed by those big round blade things and MORE dart traps, followed by sawblades and those big cliff choppers.

There is NO way to zoom out and study the layout of the traps. You just have to jump blindly into it and hope the trap sequence isn't too long, complicated, or varied. Bigger trap layouts are okay IF you have a zoom feature.

If you don't, then the trap sequences need to be smaller.


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What I'd like to see is this:


3 Gold Doors. One at the start, and One after Izaro 1st and 2nd stage. There are 2 exits from each gold door area. The Gold Door gates the "trapy" labyrinth behind it. It has all the silver key/door and forgotten reliquiary rooms behind it. It's also faster if you want to skip the optional rooms.


The exit not blocked by the gold doors are the "long way". The trap layout isn't as brutal, there are levers to turn them off, ect. Most of the minecart minigames are here too (fighting waves of monsters in order to open the doors).

It should generally take as long (or maybe a little longer) for someone who took the long way to get to the end as someone who took the "short way" but got all the optional stuff.



If that's not feasible, then perhaps the levers TURN OFF some of the traps, making the labyrinth a little safer to traverse (I think this, almost by itself, would solve a good deal of the problem... because if you follow a trap gauntlet into a place that's not where you need to go, you have to go BACK through it.

I did that one time. Came out through a secret passage, followed a spike trap/dart gauntlet to the end, only to find the previous room x.x


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As you can guess, I'm not a big fan of the labyrinth... I like to explore, take my time, and see what's in every nook and cranny. It's WAY too dangerous to do that in the Labyrinth. I don't mind some traps, but I've seen some rooms that were just overkill.


Then there's the part of it that violates what my expectations of it were. I'm not great at timing. It's why I play SC. If I go to a boss room I know I have trouble with, I do so just after a level up... because I suck at timing and so I die... a LOT.

Naturally, it's frustrating having to start back at the beginning if I die. SC being forced into a quasi HC scenario is aggravating. I have 4 Ascended characters, the Shadow took me 22 Lab attempts (I counted)... so naturally, I'd be for something that gave you multiple attempts (but not infinite... despite not caring much for the Lab itself, I DO like PoE's difficulty. I could see it being like maps: You get 6 portals into the lab before you have to start over)

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Shovelcut wrote:

I sympathize really, but in my eyes the entire "it's a different game/genre" argument is a cop out. Laby hasn't changed the gameplay, it still is the same game. We're still manually dodging death threats and avoiding things on the ground that may kill us. Perhaps I'm biased because I embrace the newness and change of pace that the laby offers, but I don't see the traps as any different than a pack of powerful crits rhoas charging at me or a patch of degen on the ground (that I can't see).

I'll stand by and fervently defend my position on this because just about every use of the 'game/genre argument' basically boils down to someone either playing a subpar build for the laby (and unwilling to adapt) or just not good at character positioning. And these 2 reasons absolutely should not justify changing the laby, but there should be something done for those with shitty ping. I feel as though your suggestion in the OP would possibly be a way to accomplish this. If it serves a dual purpose by allowing more players to enjoy the content, all the better. IMHO, of course. :P

Do you have a series of vaal smashes that you have to avoid for 2-3 screens in the normal game or 2-3 screens filled with bearers? Do you avoid frozen/ burning/ descecrated ground in normal gameplay? Do you play Mario with one life?

And as far as unwilling to adapt and not good enough:


I don't give a fuck, i do'em in hardcore. It's still not worthy to be called PoE content though.

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AceNightfire wrote:

I for example hate being squishy and losing 70% of health when getting hit by a single thing and therefore I built a super tanky flame totem marauder that uses enfeeble aura. He is lvl 76 and can stand still in cruel malachai fight and can facetank daresso/kaom merciless if I want.

Then you should be able to just waltz thru the traps, I know my tanky RF totem mara does like it isn't shit. *shrugs*