When Chris says that lab haters are a minority, how right is he?

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Prebornfetus wrote:

But nobody farms lab for the actual lab.

Nobody farms Dominus for the actual Dominus. Nobody farms Dried Lake for the actual Dried Lake. Nobody farms level 11 maps for the actual maps. Raise your hand if you would do 1200 Voll kills, if there wasn't an achievement or a fancy card possible? Who would do 100 Atziri kills without any reward(s)? Who would even play this game without some sort of reward/progression?

Lab haters makes it seem like the rewards (enchantments, loot, ascendancy points) are bad things.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Prebornfetus wrote:

But nobody farms lab for the actual lab.

Nobody farms Dominus for the actual Dominus. Nobody farms Dried Lake for the actual Dried Lake. Nobody farms level 11 maps for the actual maps. Raise your hand if you would do 1200 Voll kills, if there wasn't an achievement or a fancy card possible? Who would do 100 Atziri kills without any reward(s)? Who would even play this game without some sort of reward/progression?

Lab haters makes it seem like the rewards (enchantments, loot, ascendancy points) are bad things.

That's because their "hate" is not objective. Nothing wrong with that. It's just very hard to argue from. "I hate it because I hate it" just isn't very convincing. So they reach for rational arguments against it... and sometimes reach pretty far.

They shouldn't have to. You don't have to answer "why" when you tell someone your feelings.

The lab should simply be optional (remove the necessity in class advancement). The enchants that one can also get through trading, are specific incentive enough. The loot in the lab further should be on par with loot from challenges of equal difficulty.


It does not matter how many people like, love or hate lab. You will never get these statistics properly. And it should not matter to people who love lab that people who don't have the option to skip it. Therefore it should become optional.


Lab functionality is supply driven. It is profilation of skill and investment that makes it mandatory.

And Uber lab does not serve the mainstream at all. Cadiro served the mainstream. Even past halfway of prophecy, I have heard countless times that they wish Cadiro was back.

The elites feel Cadiro undermines the economy. That's because of power trippy uniques that need to be tuned. If the endgame was all about crafting Cadiro would not have mattered as much . It's the OP builds based on uniques....[RANTBLOCK]

Cheers

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Prebornfetus wrote:

Most the ppl do it just for the ascend points. Some others do it for enchants. A few more even farm it for lootsplosion at end. But nobody farms lab for the actual lab. Nobody is going omg I love traps and instant deaths I must have moar of that. You can gloss over a problem with rewards and requirements and shiny things but in the end its still a problem and that is leading to players leaving.

What else is there to farm? Endgame lab is pretty decent XP actually, given that it's level 75 and has several zones with good monster density. It's probably the best XP per key in the game at the moment. It still loses to gorge and plateau in XP per hour though due to being one or two levels lower and less linear.

I mean, as far as content goes, maps are pretty crappy. The areas themselves are completely non-interactive. Go in, kill the monsters, come out again. Very few bosses have any actual interesting mechanics. There's like a dozen different tilesets which are recycled over and over. Yet people run maps and no one complains.

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databeaver wrote:

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Prebornfetus wrote:

Most the ppl do it just for the ascend points. Some others do it for enchants. A few more even farm it for lootsplosion at end. But nobody farms lab for the actual lab. Nobody is going omg I love traps and instant deaths I must have moar of that. You can gloss over a problem with rewards and requirements and shiny things but in the end its still a problem and that is leading to players leaving.

What else is there to farm? Endgame lab is pretty decent XP actually, given that it's level 75 and has several zones with good monster density. It's probably the best XP per key in the game at the moment. It still loses to gorge and plateau in XP per hour though due to being one or two levels lower and less linear.

I mean, as far as content goes, maps are pretty crappy. The areas themselves are completely non-interactive. Go in, kill the monsters, come out again. Very few bosses have any actual interesting mechanics. There's like a dozen different tilesets which are recycled over and over. Yet people run maps and no one complains.

I got as far as "Yet people run maps and no one complains"

Ok, Brah.




(I started at the bottom, OK?)

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Phrazz wrote:

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Prebornfetus wrote:

But nobody farms lab for the actual lab.

Nobody farms Dominus for the actual Dominus. Nobody farms Dried Lake for the actual Dried Lake. Nobody farms level 11 maps for the actual maps. Raise your hand if you would do 1200 Voll kills, if there wasn't an achievement or a fancy card possible? Who would do 100 Atziri kills without any reward(s)? Who would even play this game without some sort of reward/progression?

Lab haters makes it seem like the rewards (enchantments, loot, ascendancy points) are bad things.

These are all also issues. Ppl should want to fight bosses for the experience as well. Each area should have its own identity and draw players in. PPL do it right now with plateau and gorge. PPL are farming these areas because of the actual area. Its fast and not much backtracking and full of baddies. They could do this with all maps. They could do it with bosses. They could do in acts. Give ur game an identity and theme and expand it...dont strip away it all to numbers and nerfs and blandness. Make mapping great again. Make trading great again. Make POE great again. GGG could take POE to the next level if they understood this

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TheAnuhart wrote:

I started at the bottom, now I'm here.. OK?)

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Shagsbeard wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

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Prebornfetus wrote:

But nobody farms lab for the actual lab.

Nobody farms Dominus for the actual Dominus. Nobody farms Dried Lake for the actual Dried Lake. Nobody farms level 11 maps for the actual maps. Raise your hand if you would do 1200 Voll kills, if there wasn't an achievement or a fancy card possible? Who would do 100 Atziri kills without any reward(s)? Who would even play this game without some sort of reward/progression?

Lab haters makes it seem like the rewards (enchantments, loot, ascendancy points) are bad things.

That's because their "hate" is not objective. Nothing wrong with that. It's just very hard to argue from. "I hate it because I hate it" just isn't very convincing. So they reach for rational arguments against it... and sometimes reach pretty far.

They shouldn't have to. You don't have to answer "why" when you tell someone your feelings.

Im not lab hater, contrary i like it but, losing hard earned uber lab portals to disconnect + losing your progress time you spend inside = objective reason for hate against an uber stupid design decision (people with stabile connection have never understood the fact that game is not stabile at all for the rest and it is natural to expect desing decisions around a non stabile game play instead of this onetime oneshot mechanics).
And dont forget that enchantment mechanic is too random for being a reward.

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Prebornfetus wrote:

Ppl should want to fight bosses for the experience as well.

The experience waters down very quickly though. Computers lack imagination so the boss behaves the same way every time. Once you learn how it behaves, beating it becomes a matter of mechanical repetition. Would you watch a 5-minute cartoon 100 times just for the experience?

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Prebornfetus wrote:

Each area should have its own identity and draw players in. PPL do it right now with plateau and gorge. PPL are farming these areas because of the actual area. Its fast and not much backtracking and full of baddies.

In other words, they do it because of the XP and/or currency drops. They choose those areas because their layout makes them the most efficient way to gain rewards.

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Prebornfetus wrote:

Give ur game an identity and theme and expand it...dont strip away it all to numbers and nerfs and blandness.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that anything becomes boring with enough repetitions. Then there needs to be an additional carrot to keep you playing. In some games it's competition against other players. Other games let you build your own environments. PoE's carrots are character progression (through both XP and equipment) and creating different builds.

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Prebornfetus wrote:

Make mapping great again. Make trading great again. Make POE great again. GGG could take POE to the next level if they understood this

I'm curious, what do you envision as PoE's "next level"? How would you keep people playing the game for thousands of hours for the game itself and not the rewards it offers?