When Chris says that lab haters are a minority, how right is he?

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Sexcalibure wrote:

more than 58% dont even have 12 achievement pretty much show how much of a minority are the people that tired of the direction GGG is giving to the game with the lab and all

I actually looked up past league %'s to compare. I was gonna make some snarky comment too but they're pretty close to passed league stats, maybe a little lower.

Honestly it doesn't mean fuck all since we don't know what numbers they're pooling from, useless stats are useless.

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TheWretch wrote:

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Sexcalibure wrote:

more than 58% dont even have 12 achievement pretty much show how much of a minority are the people that tired of the direction GGG is giving to the game with the lab and all

I actually looked up past league %'s to compare. I was gonna make some snarky comment too but they're pretty close to passed league stats, maybe a little lower.

Honestly it doesn't mean fuck all since we don't know what numbers they're pooling from, useless stats are useless.

I can pull assumption out of my ass as Chris does when saying lab dislikers are a minority... how can you analyse human feeling with ingame datas...

^ That's the joke. Anyway, he's a bright guy but that comment was so stupid. Don't call dissatisfied players a vocal minority. Even if he had backed it up with actual stats it would still be piss poor form coming from the president of a studio. The fact that there was 0 evidence brought forward to back it up made it even worse.

Any noob can take one look at the sub reddit or the forum and see that a lot of people don't like it. Minority? Maybe. Dismissing them as such? Enjoy the loss of revenue I guess?

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TheWretch wrote:

Any noob can take one look at the sub reddit or the forum and see that a lot of people don't like it. Minority? Maybe. Dismissing them as such? Enjoy the loss of revenue I guess?

The repeated argument that some might bring that reddit and forums can't represent the majority is so fallacious it's laughable at best as well.

What's more ridiculous a statement:

a) The forums are a sub-group which can be treated as representative of the total within an error margin.
b) Anyone not complaining in the forums is absolutely happy about it.

I'd say that (a) is the reasonable choice.

It's not like we have lacked people who actually defend lab in this very thread.

If anything, how many people outside the forums have access to builds that diminish the lab to laughable content?

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Apos91 wrote:

a) The forums are a sub-group which can be treated as representative of the total within an error margin.

That margin is larger than the target zone in this case, if we go by reddit and forum we would assume that an average PoE player is:
- generally bored with the game
- doesn't trust the devs anymore
- well-versed in game mechanics and knows most of the tricks in the book
- interested strictly in high level play
- is done with challenge league after a month at most after which he just waits for the new one

That's the same as saying that a car show enthusiast fairly accurately represents an average car owner.

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raics wrote:

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Apos91 wrote:

a) The forums are a sub-group which can be treated as representative of the total within an error margin.

That margin is larger than the target zone in this case, if we go by reddit and forum we would assume that an average PoE player is:
- generally bored with the game
- doesn't trust the devs anymore
- well-versed in game mechanics and knows most of the tricks in the book
- interested strictly in high level play
- is done with challenge league after a month at most after which he just waits for the new one

That's the same as saying that a car show enthusiast fairly accurately represents an average car owner.

That's true, but that the error margin is bound to be biased against the lab, not in its favor.

If many well versed players are annoyed by it, how can those outside of it who have builds barely able to go through the first battle of Izaro actually be happy about it?

An average owner generally does not understand the shortcomings of a car. The analogy would be valid if we were talking about a car that breaks down every 5 seconds and you need to have in-depth technical knowledge to get it to work. And not even those who have that technical knowledge actually want to get it to work.

If the problems with the lab was just that it's tedious, then I can see how some average joe would enjoy it. Right now I expect no average joe to even want to bother with it out of frustration.

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Apos91 wrote:

An average owner generally does not understand the shortcomings of a car.

Exactly, someone that knows what he's talking about is more likely to be critical, hence a more negative attitude around here. To an average user the car is something that has four tires, a steering wheel and a cup holder, it either works or gets transported to the licensed workshop.

If we're talking about a game it's either entertaining or not. In the silent majority of cases if it isn't fun the average user most likely won't feel invested enough to analyze why and if he feels frustrated he will quit instead of coming here to complain.

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Apos91 wrote:

What's more ridiculous a statement:

a) The forums are a sub-group which can be treated as representative of the total within an error margin.
b) Anyone not complaining in the forums is absolutely happy about it.

I'd say that (a) is the reasonable choice.

You forgot c) people are more likely to complain than express their satisfaction. When players are happy about a change you get a few "nice" and "I like it" replies on the patch notes thread. When players are unhappy you get dozens of threads about how GGG is out to get them personally and destroy all they hold dear.

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Apos91 wrote:

It's not like we have lacked people who actually defend lab in this very thread.

I didn't bother going through the thread but I'm sure most of those people were shot down as GGG which knights. The rest were probably just ignored. With reception like that you just give up after a while and keep your positive thoughts to yourself.

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databeaver wrote:

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Apos91 wrote:

What's more ridiculous a statement:

a) The forums are a sub-group which can be treated as representative of the total within an error margin.
b) Anyone not complaining in the forums is absolutely happy about it.

I'd say that (a) is the reasonable choice.

You forgot c) people are more likely to complain than express their satisfaction. When players are happy about a change you get a few "nice" and "I like it" replies on the patch notes thread. When players are unhappy you get dozens of threads about how GGG is out to get them personally and destroy all they hold dear.

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Apos91 wrote:

It's not like we have lacked people who actually defend lab in this very thread.

I didn't bother going through the thread but I'm sure most of those people were shot down as GGG which knights. The rest were probably just ignored. With reception like that you just give up after a while and keep your positive thoughts to yourself.

I neither accept your argument about satisfaction being legit, nor would I call the people who enjoy the lab white knights.

I'd rather we were provided a middle ground where more people can get to enjoy an ascended class, without taking away the rewards and difficulty of the end-game lab, which is what lab runners enjoy.

I find little meaning in having normal/cruel and merci lab with the hp pools they have. Especially normal and cruel just do not relate to the gear and links someone with a normal build is expected to have at that point without having pimped himself with a tabula to level up with.

Bolded the normal build part, because people can be happy all they want with their overscaling builds, but that doesn't mean they should define the medium or that they will remain in that state.

I seriously think when Chris made that minority comment he probably looked at some active account and see that most people has ascendancy class chosen which must mean the majority did lab at least once... Hence the majority likes lab because the majority did it at least once.