Open Letter to Chris Wilson (on making the labyrinth more inclusive)

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Emphasy wrote:

They don't need experiences though. Data is all that is required unless their is something that has issues, in which case the reasons can not be gathered that easy. However if their Data shows that the Labyrinth is appreciated by a wide enough player base that is totally fine. At this point experiences are completly meaningless.

Are you saying that it doesn't matter one bit to GGG whether the people who run lab do it gritting their teeth the whole time or actually enjoying it? What a sad world you must live in.

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GGG currently reckons that the relatively high number of people running lab means that they ENJOY it, when 9/10 of the people i talk to in-game say the lab is cancer EVEN IF THEY RUN IT REGULARLY.

Well most people I met actually like the Labyrinth, they don't like the helmet enchants and how differently the izaro mechanics behave (iE inconsistent), but not really the labyrinth in general.

I guess I don't run with the EPCC as you apparently do.

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And considering that why on earth should you run the lab regularly if you do not enjoy it?

Gambling is a hell of a drug.

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There is no reason to, you need an incredible amount of runs to get a worthwhile helmet enchant (and not just one that benefits your build at all).

Only if you're enchanting your own helmet. If you are buying up Vertex, Abyssus, and Rat's nest (as the people I mentioned do), you will very quickly come to a good enchant. Vertex is BIS helm for casters and rangers. Rat's nest is BIS for Iron Reflexes builds and MF evasion builds. Abyssus, BIS potentially for a large segment of the melee population.

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And considering the threads about it, a shitton of people don't like the map system. Should they remove it?

The map system doesn't face us with a completely different playstyle compared to what we've built our character for. The lab does. Apples and Oranges. Therefore, your point is invalid.

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They know the frustrating parts about the labyrinth, and they fixed a lot of them and acknowledged that the helmet enchanting can be frustrating.

Can be? LOL that's funny. Unless you get lucky early on, it IS frustrating.

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joachimbond wrote:

You've obviously never written a book or video game, or undertaken any sort of creative effort such as painting. Otherwise you would know that what I said was true.

So take your "data" and play with the numbers all you want. The fresh player's experience is something that GGG lack, and cannot get, except by listening to the new players who take the time to tell them why/how their experience was enjoyable/unenjoyable. That's not quantifiable by data, any more than the numbers who run the lab are indicative of how enjoyable the lab is. The lab is a shit sandwich. There's a reward inside, but you have to eat the shit sandwich to get to it. GGG currently reckons that the relatively high number of people running lab means that they ENJOY it, when 9/10 of the people i talk to in-game say the lab is cancer EVEN IF THEY RUN IT REGULARLY.

You obviously know jack sh*t about me, but hey, this is internet ! People like to pull anything out of their a**es all the time.
One more time, PoE is NOT supposed to be that Blizzard game that is trying to attract as many people as possible and to please them whatever the cost or almost, period.
Of course they need a compromise, but thanks god they won't change their main direction.

Obviously new player's feedback is important, but saying "The game SHOULD be like this" when one just arrived is just ridiculous.
But hey, are you one of those players ?
It does not matter actually ...

And another dumb statement by somebody who thinks he has the absolute truth : "The lab IS a shit sandwitch".
Very constructive feedback there, good job.

The lab does suck. It's annoying

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Fruz wrote:

You obviously know jack sh*t about me, but hey, this is internet ! People like to pull anything out of their a**es all the time.

Go ahead and tell me you're a painter or a writer or a sculptor then.

What's that? You can't? As I thought.

I'm not pulling anything out of my ass when I say it's next to impossible for a creative person who is engaged with one project for an extended period of time to have anything like an objective view of said project. All creators know this. The fact that you don't proves you aren't someone who creates frequently, and disqualifies you from criticizing my feedback that new people's experiences are important input for artists of all kinds.

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One more time, PoE is NOT supposed to be that Blizzard game that is trying to attract as many people as possible and to please them whatever the cost or almost, period.
Of course they need a compromise, but thanks god they won't change their main direction.

Yeah well i've never played d2 or d3, or even original diablo past the free preview.

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Obviously new player's feedback is important, but saying "The game SHOULD be like this" when one just arrived is just ridiculous.

I don't believe I suggested that PoE should take all newbie advice. I suggested that GGG would be well-advised to pay attention to what people like and don't like. If possible, pay more attention to what the people they are trying to attract like and don't like. Because you and I both know this world is full of scrubs who will never have the chops for this game.

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But hey, are you one of those players ?
It does not matter actually ...

And another dumb statement by somebody who thinks he has the absolute truth : "The lab IS a shit sandwitch".
Very constructive feedback there, good job.

Honestly, the lab has nothing in common with the rest of the game, as far as its platformer-type aspects are concerned. I fail to find any enjoyment in simple lever puzzles that are there only to suck up my precious time. I came here to play Path of Exile, not flappy birds, and not Mario, and sure as hell not Tomb Raider. If I wanted platformer gaming, I would play a fucking platformer.

Constructive enough for you? Ofc not, but I'm not concerned with pleasing you any more than you're concerned with pleasing me. But it's in GGGs best interest to try and please both of us.

Nobody has ever any objective idea of anything, period.

What I do in life has not relevance here, but it's not just about objectivity here anyway. GGG knows what direction they want the game to take, someone just arriving does not, and has no right to brag about what the game should be in any way.
And they have so much information that you will never have ... that they can actually have an overview of what's happening, where we cannot.

What you said before is no useful feedback, it's just like the reaction of a raging kid.
You would have given your constructive feedback, ok that would have been perfectly fine, but that's not what is happening here ( even though I admit that you seem to have made quite an effort in that last post, a little late though ).

This Mario parallel is becoming honestly boring, it has nothing to do with Mario except for the fact that Mario does uses timers sometimes, that's it ... like tons of other games ( including some bosses patterns in PoE by the way ).

You completely missed the point about Blizzard also, it was about the marketing and design strategy.

GGG have always been very careful to the feedback on the forum, and they also have always been careful not to derail the game because of QQs, even if it's tough.

The Mario, Frogger, Tomb Raider, and platform statements are simply meant to communicate that to many people the trap play in labyrinth is game play that feels the same to some players as the game play in those other games. It is a real and relevant point because that is not the game play of PoE. The trap game play is boring tedious and not fun for people. Some have argued that they like those kind of games but not using a mouse as a controller. While others have argued that they just don't like that kind of game play at all. Note that a single trap like in D2 is not sufficient to change the feel of the game play but when you have a screen full of traps or more is when it feels like trap game play, at least to some people.

In the 2wkhc race I ran the lab once , just to get my points . Even if it was a league and not a race I would've done the same . These enchants are just not worth my time and the risk involved + running the lab is not fun and I play this game to have fun in the first place .

There is no sollution for me at least , the lab is unfun part of the game and I don't like it .

As for the part that we are apparently the " vocal minority " , check out your Lab ladder and then check out the Lab hate threads . I bet you the threads are more than the actuall people playing the Lab.


Simple as that .

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tryhardgg wrote:

In the 2wkhc race I ran the lab once , just to get my points . Even if it was a league and not a race I would've done the same . These enchants are just not worth my time and the risk involved + running the lab is not fun and I play this game to have fun in the first place .

There is no sollution for me at least , the lab is unfun part of the game and I don't like it .

As for the part that we are apparently the " vocal minority " , check out your Lab ladder and then check out the Lab hate threads . I bet you the threads are more than the actuall people playing the Lab.


Simple as that .

- people playing the ladder are not the most significant part of the player base
- people going on the forum are not the most significant part of the player base ... at all
- most people tend to express it when they QQ, but not when they like something in the game.
- many people probably don't particularly hate the lab, but have no problems with it, so just do it occasionally ( like I do ).

Therefore I do not give a damn about the hate thread where you can find raging kids reactions everywhere ( hate is not constructive feedback ).

The lab trap part can be like ~15% of it if you don't take the silver keys and caches, and you can get the daily layout on the internet usually. Do you like 100% of the rest of PoE ? I doubt so.

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Turtledove wrote:

The Mario, Frogger, Tomb Raider, and platform statements are simply meant to communicate that to many people the trap play in labyrinth is game play that feels the same to some players as the game play in those other games. It is a real and relevant point because that is not the game play of PoE. The trap game play is boring tedious and not fun for people. Some have argued that they like those kind of games but not using a mouse as a controller. While others have argued that they just don't like that kind of game play at all. Note that a single trap like in D2 is not sufficient to change the feel of the game play but when you have a screen full of traps or more is when it feels like trap game play, at least to some people.

I am pretty sure that some of people found that far-fetched example by overreacting ( you know ... haters ), and then all the hating sheep followed them there.

Lots of people were asking for more skill check and less gear check, GGG implemented it, but everybody can't be happy anyway huh.