Can you outleech Academy boss with just Vinktar? I tried to fight him with concentrated effect swapped in but this just forced me to tank all those tornadoes and they killed me in less than 3 seconds. such a pain :(
Maybe I should bring a granite flask next time?
Edit: maybe using concentrated effect was a bad idea. I'll just use increased AOE and keep a distance from him so that I don't get hit by 5+ tornadoes at the same time.
You need Rumi's, Vinktar, and Vaal pact. Also, what's your tooltip?
That's completely backwards thinking. The only things that got buffed were the nodes that were utterly pointless to take. Why?
Because Pathfinder is really a 4-point ascendancy, simply because no matter what you're doing with her, you're getting master surgeon. There's really no point to play her otherwise. Let's break things down.
First off, in order to give any consistency to master surgeon, you need a playstyle that simply rapid-fires hits. There are very, very few such builds. Blade Vortex, physical CoC (Bladefall + EK/BV), and possibly LA + pierce + frost wall with a voltaxic. So that leaves us four nodes.
Now, with the above three setups, a free poison link is still easily the next best node to get. Poison scales off of physical, and even if the double dipping from conc effect is removed, it still double dips off of chaos damage scaling, which we get a massive amount of from atziri's promise. Also, the increased DoT property from Master Herbalist might as well be a "more" damage modifier, because there's no other DoT duration picked up from the tree (unless the Scion cluster scale with it).
Now, onto the other nodes:
Nature's Boon: a bunch of cute little effects. The 8% reduced elemental damage is effectively a +2 max resist under normal circumstances, a little closer to 3 under -max 14, and a little above 1 when under resist flask effect. The refills are once in a blue moon that basically helps you when you're trying to hunt down the last mobs on a map you mostly cleared. Lastly, 20% chance not to use flask charges is hilarious, but not exactly something you can build around. The variance is just too high.
In other words, this node is easily the worst one on the tree. Nature's adrenaline at least lets you run at enemies faster, move faster during cyclone (CoC variant), or whirl faster for both Blade Vortex and CoC builds. This basically has no redeeming qualities besides a little more elemental damage resistance. AKA there will be very few times this thing actually makes any amount of difference.
Next, Master Alchemist. Okay, this thing looks good at first, but when you think about it, it isn't. Why? Because whatever elemental damage you do, you're already applying its status effects. So, vinktar, ToH, hatred, added fire? You're applying the status ailments when you crit as it stands. Elemental status immunity during flask usage? Okay, so that opens up what? Here's the thing--Diamond, Basalt, and Silver flasks don't have unique variants. So you're not really getting much more by putting one of them down. Yes, Taste of Hate looks appealing because "OMFG TASTE OF HATE", but we're not getting +10% max res from flasks anymore, and it only converts 20% down from 30%. Without this node, you could put down the atziri's flask in a -max +cold damage map or something if you have it on hand and are paranoid about volatiles. However, you're not just getting an extra flask slot from this, but you ARE paying four ascendancy points to get here, and very much ARE giving up poison. Just not worth it for the top-tier Pathfinder builds.
Essentially, this leaves Veteran Bowyer as the only remaining ascendancy node that's a good pickup. I don't know how the math of this works out exactly, but it looks to be somewhere in the 10% additional damage, no questions asked, and then a very nice flask refill effect while speed clearing with hatred or vinktar running.
So at the end of the day, here's the thing...
The physical pathfinders basically got a vanilla two-point buff that hey, now they can get veteran bowyer, which also has the worst small node for them (+10% physical attack damage does nothing for BV, CoC, or even Voltaxic LA frost wall, should you decide to go that route).
All those buffs essentially were for completely different, elementally-dedicated Pathfinders. Heck, I'm not even sure what sort of build they're dedicated for. Nature's Boon is just garbage, and master alchemist seems redundant on almost any build you can think of.
Very valid points, because I was thinking Master Alchemist was a must get over Master Surgeon. This will be the build I start next week in the new league so it will be my first time playing it. I get where you are coming from, tho the elemental status alignments would of been nice, because you essentially only have 2 flasks that you can roll Immunity on Hp+ Basalt, and 1 has to be shock and the other should be freeze. But I guess you are right since it not worth taking it over Master Surgeon, that gives flask charge on crit chance. Also is Arcane Chemistry in the tree a must? I feel its a waste of of 2 points, the 15% reduced flask charges is nice, but I think its better to use the 2 points towards life nodes, especially for HC. But never played BV so not sure.
That's completely backwards thinking. The only things that got buffed were the nodes that were utterly pointless to take. Why?
Because Pathfinder is really a 4-point ascendancy, simply because no matter what you're doing with her, you're getting master surgeon. There's really no point to play her otherwise. Let's break things down.
First off, in order to give any consistency to master surgeon, you need a playstyle that simply rapid-fires hits. There are very, very few such builds. Blade Vortex, physical CoC (Bladefall + EK/BV), and possibly LA + pierce + frost wall with a voltaxic. So that leaves us four nodes.
Now, with the above three setups, a free poison link is still easily the next best node to get. Poison scales off of physical, and even if the double dipping from conc effect is removed, it still double dips off of chaos damage scaling, which we get a massive amount of from atziri's promise. Also, the increased DoT property from Master Herbalist might as well be a "more" damage modifier, because there's no other DoT duration picked up from the tree (unless the Scion cluster scale with it).
Now, onto the other nodes:
Nature's Boon: a bunch of cute little effects. The 8% reduced elemental damage is effectively a +2 max resist under normal circumstances, a little closer to 3 under -max 14, and a little above 1 when under resist flask effect. The refills are once in a blue moon that basically helps you when you're trying to hunt down the last mobs on a map you mostly cleared. Lastly, 20% chance not to use flask charges is hilarious, but not exactly something you can build around. The variance is just too high.
In other words, this node is easily the worst one on the tree. Nature's adrenaline at least lets you run at enemies faster, move faster during cyclone (CoC variant), or whirl faster for both Blade Vortex and CoC builds. This basically has no redeeming qualities besides a little more elemental damage resistance. AKA there will be very few times this thing actually makes any amount of difference.
Next, Master Alchemist. Okay, this thing looks good at first, but when you think about it, it isn't. Why? Because whatever elemental damage you do, you're already applying its status effects. So, vinktar, ToH, hatred, added fire? You're applying the status ailments when you crit as it stands. Elemental status immunity during flask usage? Okay, so that opens up what? Here's the thing--Diamond, Basalt, and Silver flasks don't have unique variants. So you're not really getting much more by putting one of them down. Yes, Taste of Hate looks appealing because "OMFG TASTE OF HATE", but we're not getting +10% max res from flasks anymore, and it only converts 20% down from 30%. Without this node, you could put down the atziri's flask in a -max +cold damage map or something if you have it on hand and are paranoid about volatiles. However, you're not just getting an extra flask slot from this, but you ARE paying four ascendancy points to get here, and very much ARE giving up poison. Just not worth it for the top-tier Pathfinder builds.
Essentially, this leaves Veteran Bowyer as the only remaining ascendancy node that's a good pickup. I don't know how the math of this works out exactly, but it looks to be somewhere in the 10% additional damage, no questions asked, and then a very nice flask refill effect while speed clearing with hatred or vinktar running.
So at the end of the day, here's the thing...
The physical pathfinders basically got a vanilla two-point buff that hey, now they can get veteran bowyer, which also has the worst small node for them (+10% physical attack damage does nothing for BV, CoC, or even Voltaxic LA frost wall, should you decide to go that route).
All those buffs essentially were for completely different, elementally-dedicated Pathfinders. Heck, I'm not even sure what sort of build they're dedicated for. Nature's Boon is just garbage, and master alchemist seems redundant on almost any build you can think of.
Very valid points, because I was thinking Master Alchemist was a must get over Master Surgeon. This will be the build I start next week in the new league so it will be my first time playing it. I get where you are coming from, tho the elemental status alignments would of been nice, because you essentially only have 2 flasks that you can roll Immunity on Hp+ Basalt, and 1 has to be shock and the other should be freeze. But I guess you are right since it not worth taking it over Master Surgeon, that gives flask charge on crit chance. Also is Arcane Chemistry in the tree a must? I feel its a waste of of 2 points, the 15% reduced flask charges is nice, but I think its better to use the 2 points towards life nodes, especially for HC. But never played BV so not sure.
On Arcane Chemistry: for ES pathfinders, it's just too costly in terms of points. You spend 6 points just going through dex and eva wheel from the vaal pact jewel slot. To put that into perspective, those same 6 points could have gotten you Shadow's Force Shaper route and 1 node on Shadow start. Or they could get you unnatural calm branching out from Witch power charge. However, the story changes with life-based pathfinders, since they want to go to the Scion life wheel. Then, it becomes a fantastic pickup for them when coupled with -20% flask charges used on a belt, which would turn a 30 charge unique flask (say, Rumi's concoction) into a 20 charge flask, but more importantly, make a 60 charge Vessel of Vinktar into a much more manageable 40 charge flask.
- 1st - so... . Flasks stands up for 10 seconds. We running like perma 83% all res (doesn't matter map have - res)
Maps can have -15 max res... 83-15 = 68
If a non-minus max map can bring me to 2K life I'm pretty sure a -max map will kill me (again).
"
ONTO wrote:
Can you outleech Academy boss with just Vinktar? I tried to fight him with concentrated effect swapped in but this just forced me to tank all those tornadoes and they killed me in less than 3 seconds. such a pain :(
Maybe I should bring a granite flask next time?
Edit: maybe using concentrated effect was a bad idea. I'll just use increased AOE and keep a distance from him so that I don't get hit by 5+ tornadoes at the same time.
As others said: Rumi's / ToH / Vinktar
I just pre-load 50 stacks with conc and I go give him a hug and he's dead. Tornados hurt a lot yes but 50 stacks with conc is enough to melt him. (~24k tooltip with hatred)
Last edited by Affinity#3941 on May 29, 2016, 3:04:00 AM
Do you think I could get away with doing this as a league starter? Vinktars/Taste of Hate will probably be much more expensive than I'm used to (started in Perandus), and I'm worried my progression will be halted because of currency. I play market a lot and can make a lot of money quickly, but I'm just scared that the prices are way more than I can whip up quickly.
Do you think I could get away with doing this as a league starter? Vinktars/Taste of Hate will probably be much more expensive than I'm used to (started in Perandus), and I'm worried my progression will be halted because of currency. I play market a lot and can make a lot of money quickly, but I'm just scared that the prices are way more than I can whip up quickly.
I started Perandus HC with this build and it worked out just fine for me (:
Next, Master Alchemist. Okay, this thing looks good at first, but when you think about it, it isn't. Why? Because whatever elemental damage you do, you're already applying its status effects. So, vinktar, ToH, hatred, added fire? You're applying the status ailments when you crit as it stands. Elemental status immunity during flask usage? Okay, so that opens up what? Here's the thing--Diamond, Basalt, and Silver flasks don't have unique variants. So you're not really getting much more by putting one of them down. Yes, Taste of Hate looks appealing because "OMFG TASTE OF HATE", but we're not getting +10% max res from flasks anymore, and it only converts 20% down from 30%. Without this node, you could put down the atziri's flask in a -max +cold damage map or something if you have it on hand and are paranoid about volatiles. However, you're not just getting an extra flask slot from this, but you ARE paying four ascendancy points to get here, and very much ARE giving up poison. Just not worth it for the top-tier Pathfinder builds.
Main reason to take Master Alchemist is so that you can use a bunch of unique flasks with Vinktars and be immune to shock. eg. This is going to be my flask loadout for a low-life CoC physical spells build.
I'm using a life-based Blade Vortex build just to level up and get the Ascendancy points before switching to CoC. Hence me stumbling upon this thread.
Edit: Poison also isn't that useful for top tier builds that kill bosses in a couple seconds. The numbers seem like a lot but the damage is spread over several seconds. By the time you get a few poison stacks going, the boss is already dead.
Oh, in your case, absolutely. Legacy ToH = bonkers. With pathfinder, it's a 37.8% damage reduction, and even more if you use conqueror's potency. Plus, Legacy ToH + Legacy Vinktar...why do you think they were nerfed in the first place ?=]. But yeah, pathfinder with legacy unique flasks = about as god-mode as you can possibly get.
On Arcane Chemistry: for ES pathfinders, it's just too costly in terms of points. You spend 6 points just going through dex and eva wheel from the vaal pact jewel slot. To put that into perspective, those same 6 points could have gotten you Shadow's Force Shaper route and 1 node on Shadow start. Or they could get you unnatural calm branching out from Witch power charge. However, the story changes with life-based pathfinders, since they want to go to the Scion life wheel. Then, it becomes a fantastic pickup for them when coupled with -20% flask charges used on a belt, which would turn a 30 charge unique flask (say, Rumi's concoction) into a 20 charge flask, but more importantly, make a 60 charge Vessel of Vinktar into a much more manageable 40 charge flask.
Thanks for the info! You have definitely cleared it up for me. So as for Master Herbalist, since the poison stacks, and blade vortex hits a ton at a fast pace, does that mean it has a potential to stack a total of 50 times? 1 per blade? Is the damage noticeably different? Really trying to decide to either go Pathfinder or Slayer for Fridays HC League. I love the Pathfinders Increased Flask Effects/Duration and the nearly 100% up time. But with Slayers buff it could open new possibilities with 40% increased Radius, 20% more dmg, 50% Less Phys Reflect, and of course the 20% culling for bosses. Their play styles will be a little different (70% Flask up time [Slayer] vs 100% uptime [Pathfinder]) but the Slayer has the potential of 30% inc Flask Effect vs 50% (Pathfinder). Slayers 12 % Flask Duration (5.3secs) vs Pathfinders 48% (7secs). The numbers are not that far fetched from each other, but the pathfinders golden trait is the 10% chance (charge on crit)/poison on hit. Now I don't have the experience with blade vortex as much as you do, so do you think its worth playing Slayer over Pathfinder? Trees are pretty similar and both with be MoM, but do you think the Slayers Ascendancy will outshine Pathfinders?
On Arcane Chemistry: for ES pathfinders, it's just too costly in terms of points. You spend 6 points just going through dex and eva wheel from the vaal pact jewel slot. To put that into perspective, those same 6 points could have gotten you Shadow's Force Shaper route and 1 node on Shadow start. Or they could get you unnatural calm branching out from Witch power charge. However, the story changes with life-based pathfinders, since they want to go to the Scion life wheel. Then, it becomes a fantastic pickup for them when coupled with -20% flask charges used on a belt, which would turn a 30 charge unique flask (say, Rumi's concoction) into a 20 charge flask, but more importantly, make a 60 charge Vessel of Vinktar into a much more manageable 40 charge flask.
Thanks for the info! You have definitely cleared it up for me. So as for Master Herbalist, since the poison stacks, and blade vortex hits a ton at a fast pace, does that mean it has a potential to stack a total of 50 times? 1 per blade? Is the damage noticeably different? Really trying to decide to either go Pathfinder or Slayer for Fridays HC League. I love the Pathfinders Increased Flask Effects/Duration and the nearly 100% up time. But with Slayers buff it could open new possibilities with 40% increased Radius, 20% more dmg, 50% Less Phys Reflect, and of course the 20% culling for bosses. Their play styles will be a little different (70% Flask up time [Slayer] vs 100% uptime [Pathfinder]) but the Slayer has the potential of 30% inc Flask Effect vs 50% (Pathfinder). Slayers 12 % Flask Duration (5.3secs) vs Pathfinders 48% (7secs). The numbers are not that far fetched from each other, but the pathfinders golden trait is the 10% chance (charge on crit)/poison on hit. Now I don't have the experience with blade vortex as much as you do, so do you think its worth playing Slayer over Pathfinder? Trees are pretty similar and both with be MoM, but do you think the Slayers Ascendancy will outshine Pathfinders?
Thanks for the info so far!
I don't see anything in slayer tree that would encourage a BV build. At least not in the planned 2.3. Even currently, slayer starts off in a terrible part of the tree for a BV build (in fact, the exact opposite spot that you'd like to). Reflect is deadly, yes, but only if you don't see it. Rumi's + basalt + phys to lightning in the links + reckless defense jewel = will keep you safe so long as you remember to keep flasks up, or if you're in HC, just skip over reflect maps. Not because you can't do them (far from), but because they're the only thing that will really kill you aside from something nuts like twinned core.
Oh, as for poison, you can stack it up as many times as you hit. Conc effect + poison + vulnerability curse = if you don't blow it up in a few seconds, the poison certainly will. To put it in perspective, I basically blink and blow up the Death and Taxes bosses with my conc effected 6L running.
