[2.2] 100% chaos ICE TRAPPER - UBER down (T15 Abyss Double Boss fight in 10 sec!!)

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unlucky_child wrote:

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hankinsohl wrote:

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unlucky_child wrote:

Why no ENTROPY node??

ice dmg -> PYRE = fire
fire dmg -> CONSUMIG DARK = POISON CHAOS

The poison dot applied by Consuming Dark is 10% of base damage per second and has a base duration of 2 seconds.

Simply put, we don't take Entropy because other damage nodes are much better for us.

Yes, but i have read this in other guide and says

"To achieve incredible damage, this build converts 100% of the fire damage from Magma Orb and Firestorm to chaos damage (Chaos Orb and ChaosStorm), thanks to the Consuming Dark Dagger. The dagger also Poisons on hit, and Poison is the reason why this build does so much damage.
The way you make Poison do monstrous DPS is by using the double-dipping mechanic with the Poison effect.
Trap Damage, Area Damage, Chaos Damage and Projectile Damage all double-dip on your Chaos Orb Trap's Poison damage, while the first three double-dip for ChaosStorm Trap.
This means that there will be an incredible burst damage from Poison immediately after the hit - hence the insta-death of Uber Atziri.

How do they double-dip?

Let's take into example Trap Damage.
Trap Damage will boost the initial hit of your Chaos Orb - which will increase the damage of Poison, since Poison's damage is based on 10% of the initial hit.
But Trap Damage will also boost the damage over time effect of the Poison, because it's applied through a trap-linked spell.
This way, Trap Damage modifiers apply twice to the Poison effect.
This is true for all the above-mentioned modifiers.

On top of all this, the build uses Elemental Overload.
The 40% MORE multiplier to elemental damage applies to the original fire damage of your spell, that then gets converted to chaos damage. As you can see in the videos, you can easily cast Orbs of Storm linked with the Critical Strike Chance gem to make Elemental Overload immediately proc (gem setup below).
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The reason why Entropy isn't good is that it only scales the poison DOT, not the initial hit. So it single dips, it only boosts the 20% of our damage which poisons and it has a delayed effect, taking 2 seconds to apply the DOT ticks (when virtually everything - other than some very tough bosses - is dead long before 2 seconds elapse).

So let's take an example. In this example we assume that we have no source of added damage at all and are simply comparing the effect of taking the Entropy node versus taking a Physical and Chaos Damage node.

Suppose you attack and do 100 chaos damage to a mob. The way that poison works, you will also do 20 poison damage to this mob over 2 seconds.

If you take Entropy, you get 27% increased damage over time (and to simplify things we'll ignore the increased skill duration).

So with the Entropy node, we do 100 initial damage plus 20 * 1.27 = 25.4 for a total of 125.4 damage.

Now suppose instead of taking Entropy we take a Physical and Chaos damage node which gives us 10% increased chaos damage. This node scales both our initial hit and our DOT.

With the Physical and Chaos Damage node we do:

100 base damage * 1.1 plus the poison dot.

The base poison DOT is 20% of the base damage = 100 * 1.1 * 0.2
However this base damage is also scaled by the Physical and Chaos Damage node since it double dips.
So the total DOT damage is 100 * 1.1 * 0.2 * 1.1 = 24.2

In summary:

Damage taking no nodes is: 100 base + 20 poison = 120 total
With Entropy: 100 base + 25.4 poison = 125.4 total = a gain of 5.4
With Physical and Chaos Damage node: 110 base + 24.2 poison = 134.2 total = a gain of 14.2

So the Physical and Chaos Damage node is almost 3 times better than the Entropy node. In an actual build the difference between the 2 nodes won't be this extreme due to diminishing returns on increased damage; nonetheless, virtually any damage node that simply scales our base damage, whether or not it double dips, will be better than the Entropy node.

Possible to play with CI? Playing Mines build at the moment, but really want to try traps.

Yesterday evening I decided to switch my Trapper to the Chaos Ice Trap version. Actually he's lvl 81.

I did some rippy double Boss maps like -max res, vuln, temp chains Double Boss Torture Chamber (I needed it for the Challenge). I also did Double Temple Piety (one with a fcking ghost...).

Its ridiculous how fast Bosses melt down. With Enfeeble on Blasphemy its pretty safe aswell.



Sadly my Equipment (except my Chest) is kinda bad, I needed all my Jewelslots to cap resistances.

Damage with 4 Frenzy's is about 13k this will easily scale to 30k+ with leveled gems and proper jewels.

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hankinsohl wrote:

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unlucky_child wrote:

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hankinsohl wrote:

Why no ENTROPY node??

ice dmg -> PYRE = fire
fire dmg -> CONSUMIG DARK = POISON CHAOS
The poison dot applied by Consuming Dark is 10% of base damage per second and has a base duration of 2 seconds.

Simply put, we don't take Entropy because other damage nodes are much better for us.

Yes, but i have read this in other guide and says

"To achieve incredible damage, this build converts 100% of the fire damage from Magma Orb and Firestorm to chaos damage (Chaos Orb and ChaosStorm), thanks to the Consuming Dark Dagger. The dagger also Poisons on hit, and Poison is the reason why this build does so much damage.
The way you make Poison do monstrous DPS is by using the double-dipping mechanic with the Poison effect.
Trap Damage, Area Damage, Chaos Damage and Projectile Damage all double-dip on your Chaos Orb Trap's Poison damage, while the first three double-dip for ChaosStorm Trap.
This means that there will be an incredible burst damage from Poison immediately after the hit - hence the insta-death of Uber Atziri.

How do they double-dip?

Let's take into example Trap Damage.
Trap Damage will boost the initial hit of your Chaos Orb - which will increase the damage of Poison, since Poison's damage is based on 10% of the initial hit.
But Trap Damage will also boost the damage over time effect of the Poison, because it's applied through a trap-linked spell.
This way, Trap Damage modifiers apply twice to the Poison effect.
This is true for all the above-mentioned modifiers.

On top of all this, the build uses Elemental Overload.
The 40% MORE multiplier to elemental damage applies to the original fire damage of your spell, that then gets converted to chaos damage. As you can see in the videos, you can easily cast Orbs of Storm linked with the Critical Strike Chance gem to make Elemental Overload immediately proc (gem setup below).
"

The reason why Entropy isn't good is that it only scales the poison DOT, not the initial hit. So it single dips, it only boosts the 20% of our damage which poisons and it has a delayed effect, taking 2 seconds to apply the DOT ticks (when virtually everything - other than some very tough bosses - is dead long before 2 seconds elapse).

So let's take an example. In this example we assume that we have no source of added damage at all and are simply comparing the effect of taking the Entropy node versus taking a Physical and Chaos Damage node.

Suppose you attack and do 100 chaos damage to a mob. The way that poison works, you will also do 20 poison damage to this mob over 2 seconds.

If you take Entropy, you get 27% increased damage over time (and to simplify things we'll ignore the increased skill duration).

So with the Entropy node, we do 100 initial damage plus 20 * 1.27 = 25.4 for a total of 125.4 damage.

Now suppose instead of taking Entropy we take a Physical and Chaos damage node which gives us 10% increased chaos damage. This node scales both our initial hit and our DOT.

With the Physical and Chaos Damage node we do:

100 base damage * 1.1 plus the poison dot.

The base poison DOT is 20% of the base damage = 100 * 1.1 * 0.2
However this base damage is also scaled by the Physical and Chaos Damage node since it double dips.
So the total DOT damage is 100 * 1.1 * 0.2 * 1.1 = 24.2

In summary:

Damage taking no nodes is: 100 base + 20 poison = 120 total
With Entropy: 100 base + 25.4 poison = 125.4 total = a gain of 5.4 DPS.
With Physical and Chaos Damage node: 110 base + 24.2 poison = 134.2 total = a gain of 14.2 DPS.

Clarification :

The TICK dmg is calculated once and then applied once per sec for 2+duration of poison (if duration is increased you get DMG*X increased duration outcome).

With Entropy cluster and based dmg of 100 chaos damage you will deal:

100 * 0.1 = 10.. * 1.47 = 14.7.. * 2,05 = 30.135 dmg.

100 + 30 ~ 130 dmg. With full entropy cluster (3 points)

(i dont get it why you want to calculate vs chaos nodes when everyone here is taking them either way)

In my case (non -crit) i have to choose between Elemental Focus or Entropy, which means:

32% ele or 47% dot.

Ele will increase only base hit:

100 * 1.32 = 132.. * 0.1 = 13.2 * 2 = 26.4

132 + 26.4 = 158.4
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Over all:

Scaling DOT: 130 dmg
Scaliing base dmg: 158 dmg

Colclusion:
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO SCALE INITIAL HIT !!!!

Conclusion 2:
Double-Tripple dipping will be ALWAYS better than DOT increase.

@eragon1111
Yes, but your calculation is the same as mine (I specifically said we're ignoring increased duration to simplify the calculation).

And in your example you are taking 3 DOT nodes whereas I was comparing one Entropy node to one Chaos and Physical Damage node.

Edit: And 5% increased skill effect duration should result in 2 * 1.05 = 2.1 seconds (you wrote 2.05)

Awesome Build! Thank you OP.

I realised I moved alot when playing this build, wondering if anyone's thoughts on taking arrow dancing?

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MaxClip wrote:

I realised I moved alot when playing this build, wondering if anyone's thoughts on taking arrow dancing?

I've been seriously considering this node. I run temporal chains, so melee never seems to reach me.

The most dangerous mobs for me are those Porcupine Goliaths.

On the other hand, if I run perpendicular to the direction that Porcupine spikes shoot out, I can usually avoid the spikes. Though it's been close a few times, I haven't died yet.

And there are so many damage nodes to take :-).

If I end up dying a few times to projectiles I may change my mind, but for now, I'm not taking Arrow Dancing.

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hankinsohl wrote:

@eragon1111
Yes, but your calculation is the same as mine (I specifically said we're ignoring increased duration to simplify the calculation).

And in your example you are taking 3 DOT nodes whereas I was comparing one Entropy node to one Chaos and Physical Damage node.

Edit: And 5% increased skill effect duration should result in 2 * 1.05 = 2.1 seconds (you wrote 2.05)

yes, but i just wanted to point out situation for non-crit based trappers meaning that:

"It's not worth it to take entropy over elemental focus".

And to duration, yes there might be a small error, but outcome is almost the same.

As to phys+chaos vs entropy:

There is nothing to talk here about. Chaos nodes are starting nodes and we all are taking them, because they double dip and there is no better option.

Also for non-crit version Elemental Overload would be very good. Im yet to find a good utilization for this node:
- OoS ?
- Ice spear ?
- .. ?

@eragon1111
We're on the same page.

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eragon1111 wrote:

As to phys+chaos vs entropy:

There is nothing to talk here about. Chaos nodes are starting nodes and we all are taking them

I was actually referring to the nodes on the way to Atrophy.

Someone was asking about my NoN-Crit ZO-EB-MOM version of this build: