Here is why the Labyrinth favours softcore and is a very bad design.

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sidtherat wrote:

Guy 1 simply doesnt know how this stuff can be played and encounters issues that are his own fault. Guy 1 will continue to encounter said issues because he is convinced that his methods are OK but the game is not OK.

Guy 2 continues having fun because there is no point in helping Guy 1 as he 'knows best'

I will believe you have a point when you do 100 labs on a lvl90 hc char and show me proof. Until then good luck softcore hero.

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Pyrokar wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

that was a video from day1

now i can do it both FASTER and SAFER. you do not have to rush like i do.

ive got my respec points today for my CI witch and ill show you how this stuff works for CI (no pots)

what will you do then?

Guy 1: I think this is bad desing because reasons.
Guy 2: It can be done, so it's not.

...

Guy 1: I'm playing hardcore, and labyrinth is too hardcore for me. Softcore players should have more hardcore experience than hardcore players. Is bad design.
Guy 2: What?
Guy 1: You are wrong, troll, I ignore you. THIS IS BAD DESIGN, I'M HARDCORE PLAYER, BLABLABLA, CAN'T HEAR YOU...

This is pretty funny please continue. Oh and remember to adress the points in the OP if you can.

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Pyrokar wrote:

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Perq wrote:

Should be changed. How? Do you have any better idea?

It's not really that hard to find solutions. Introduce life flasks that heal percentage of life and es could be one.
Remove ascendancy points from lab and put them on malachai for people who have trouble or don't want to run labyrinths could be another etc.

Percentage life flask... Hmmm...



Oh, look! Here it is!

But the ES... hmmm, how do I regen ES, while being damaged... HMMMMM...

VAAL

(Apparently I'm using all of my Vaal Disciplines... C:)

Oh, look! Here it is!

/thread?

^there is no way to plan for when you will get hit by a trap. If you use vaal disc beforehand you have like 4sec to complete a whole trap maze, if you do it after getting hit you are casting it on top of traps. Nice try but no.

If you've already run the lab once in each difficulty, you don't need to run it again on a level 90+ character and risk dying. The lab is risky for all builds (even softcore ones). You should use like a level 70-80 character if you want to run it just for the leaderboards or enchants. That way you're only risking one piece of your 90+ player's gear, and much less exp is being risked as well.

The problem:

Traps deal percentage damage. If you gear defensively and go for large hp/es pool, this does nothing to help you against traps. Except, your recovery will take longer, resulting in less ehp overall after you are done with traps.

Basically, your defenses (against traps) suffer if you gear/spec deffenisvely. Which is bad design.

I propose solution:

Traps deal percentage of base life combined with flat damage. Example (numbers pulled out of my @ss):
- trap used to deal 50% of health+ES per second on all difficulties
- trap now deals 25% of health+ES + 100 per second on normal
- trap now deals 25% of health+ES + 500 per second on cruel
- trap now deals 25% of health+ES + 1000 per second on merciless

This way traps will not be trivial regardless on difficulty, but still high health/ES players will live noticably longer against them for their ehp investment

Offtopic

Hardcore/softcore/it's hard!/it's easy!/ascendancy points should be free/I like traps/I hate labirynth/Ponies are kewl

Seriously, how does above add anything to dicussion about this particluar mechanic?

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Pyrokar wrote:

I have 6k life and 4,5 k es. That's 10,5k points to drain until i die.
Traps do percentage damage so if you are hybrid they take into account your total hp and es to calculate the damage they do. Now i understand that 10,5k is probably double or sometimes tripple what you softcore heros run the lab with.

Here is the thing though, while you get hit for 1,5k - 3k dmg per hit and can use one instant pot to refresh your life pool, i get hit for 5k - 6k and have to use a whole instant flask (all three charges in very quick succession) to heal the same amount you do with one charge. Furthermore, i can only do that when i am nearly dead since flasks don't regen es. I have no idea how hybrid and non witch ci builds, who cant regen enough through the damage, can survive a series of hits and are fine with the way lab works now.

For me to do lab runs, i have to remove my gear, get new gear with no life or es and respec out of life nodes. Does this sound like a pretty softcore build to you? It pretty much does to me...
It is very, very badly designed and since it's integral to the expansion i think it should be changed for people running builds like the ones i mentioned.

Imagine Spiderman shooting his web onto a bridge and swinging across. Now imagine Batman trying to do the same thing, except Batman is trying to swing across the bridge while he is still sitting in his car.

The labyrinth requires a new mind set - I would have thought that the HC players would have picked up on it first, because it is very elementary.

First Rule: Don't get killed
Second Rule: Don't get killed.
Third Rule: Avoid the traps

Fourth Rule: Move away from the traps if they are moving toward you.
Fifth Rule: Look ahead - plan your path
Sixth Rule: If you are going to Leap, Warp, or Whirl - look where you are going to end up at.

Seventh Rule: Watch for a pattern when there are multiple traps. GGG didn't design the labyrinth to keep players out or auto kill them. There's a solution - a pattern of moving, pausing and moving again, that will get you safely across the traps.

Eighth Rule: If you occasionally do get hit by a trap, drink a flask.

Ninth Rule: If you hitting the flasks more often than once or twice in an instance, you are probably moving too fast for your hand to eye coordination level. SLOW DOWN.

Tenth Rule:Characters are allowed to move sideways, and in the labyrinth, that skill is more valuable than any armor, ES, or life.

Eleventh Rule: If you choose to ignore the rules of the labyrinth, and play dangerously, then be prepared to accept the consequences. Live Fast, Die Young and all that good stuff.

TL/DR - Izaro and the lab are old school Ironman - the original multiplayer hardcore - not this mushy stuff people think nowadays is HC. The do it all in one shot, and move cautiously and carefully with planning is part of that play style. It's not about being over geared and over leveled, it's about knowing the game mechanics and optimizing every move you make.

The design of the labyrinth is fine, the players riding their mopeds into oncoming traffic and expecting to only get nicks and bruises from the semi trucks are the problem.

Funny how you think this is some sort of a throwback when the optimal way to play it is the same as the optimal way to play everything else - movement skill and quick silver flask to completely skip the content, burst down the boss as fast as possible before he does damage to you.

Needless to say the biggest problems players are experiencing with the content itself come from server issues, lag and the game engine being too clunky for precision walking.

Guy 1: labyrinth is designed for softcore scrubs, i cannot tank it with my life node , es 10k life , logout auto pot bot programs.
Guy 2: u wot m8?
Guy 1: awful BAD DESIGN, I FACE TANK t50 maps but traps HIT 3k, You softcore Scrubs .
Guy 2: what about playing standard m8?
Guy 1: oh, never thought about it. .... ( 3 mins later ) BUT IM A HARDCORE PLAYER, IM THE BEST IN THE WORLD SOFTCORE FOR CASUAL TRASH....