SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Here's what I think the general context of the labyrinth is from the GGG perspective. The best data that we have is two recent GGG threads.

GGG announced that just the normal lab would be simplified in the thread. It was obviously sending up a trial balloon to get a general feel for where the player base stood on the issue.
Changes to the Labyrinth.


The thread opened a floodgate of labyrinth dislike outpouring from the player base. It was so amazing I decided to make an exception and do the analysis of new players posting labyrinth dislike in a thread outside the Feedback and Suggestions forum. There were about 117 new names added to the list. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 910 posters in support GGG got the message and their response was to apparently cut back the first two labs to just bare bones labyrinths in the beta instead of just the first one.

GGG decided to check their newly implemented plan, that is cutting way back on the disliked content for both of the first two labs. Labyrinth Changes in Beta Feedback The first question asked was

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What is your opinion of the current Normal and Cruel versions of the Labyrinth? How does it compare to 3.0.0 Beta?

I think that this was the first question because it was obviously the most important question.

The overwhelming response was along the lines of "much better". The less crappy content the better.

So this is where we're at now. Now we have a Goetzjam telling the falsehood that this thread does not cover any enhancements to labyrinth. The suggested ideas are broken into two groups one for alternatives to lab and the second section for enhancements to the lab. Heck even the parenthetical part of the title of this thread includes reference to the truth that [Removed by Support]. What GGG chose to do in 3.0 is very similar to suggestions 1 and 2, basically cutting back on traps on the way to Izaro. Now I'm not pushing the idea that GGG looked at this OP and picked from there. The intended purpose of the list is more brain storming and giving examples of things that would "fix" the problem.

I think it's clear that GGG had the thought about reducing the labyrinth content in 3.0 in part, at least, because of there being many hundreds of threads in this forum and many hundreds of posters in this forum making their views known. Also this thread of 636 pages long is likely a forum record. Much thanks to that accomplishment must ironically be shared with both sides of the discussion.

The bottom line is that with the 3.0 changes we have a much better game to play, IMHO. Thank you ALL!

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Turtledove wrote:

The bottom line is that with the 3.0 changes we have a much better game to play, IMHO. Thank you ALL!

How would you know, you haven't played the game in over a year at this point have you?

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goetzjam wrote:

Where in this post do you see anything about improving it, they want to be able to get the power, essentially without doing anything at all.

I stopped there. This arrogant attitude is totally lost on me. I almost don't see ANYBODY at all wanting the points "essentially without doing nothing". If YOU view "alternatives" as nothing, that's on YOU, no one else.

I've written about improvements several times in this thread, and so have others. If you CHOOSE to ignore that, that's also on you. You're so far into the "this is what we got, deal with it" bubble, that you don't seem able of consider any possibilities what so ever.

It's almost like you think the lab is PERFECT, and the ULTIMATE way of getting the ascendancy points. Every other option in the world, every idea, every rework, is idiotic just because; "this is what we've got, deal with it".

I wonder have the world would look with that attitude.

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Where in this post do you see anything about improving it, they want to be able to get the power, essentially without doing anything at all.

I stopped there. This arrogant attitude is totally lost on me. I almost don't see ANYBODY at all wanting the points "essentially without doing nothing". If YOU view "alternatives" as nothing, that's on YOU, no one else.

I've written about improvements several times in this thread, and so have others. If you CHOOSE to ignore that, that's also on you. You're so far into the "this is what we got, deal with it" bubble, that you don't seem able of consider any possibilities what so ever.

It's almost like you think the lab is PERFECT, and the ULTIMATE way of getting the ascendancy points. Every other option in the world, every idea, every rework, is idiotic just because; "this is what we've got, deal with it".

I wonder have the world would look with that attitude.

Again why are you posting ideas that don't align with OP's if he isn't going to respect it enough to add it to the list then your just posting in a massive thread of shit ideas. Perhaps your ideas are better then his, but they aren't showcased in the OP and they are buried somewhere in this thread.

By all means go link them, because its entirely possible it was inbetween when I stopped reading this thread last time and when I started to post again.


I do think the lab should be the only way to get the AC points, because anything else after being introduced as the way we do it now would seem like a cave to cater to mass complains about something people just want easier access to. Hell the whole forums here is littered with complains about easier access.

I want higher drop rates of this, I want div cards to have higher drop rates in SSF. I want SSF, but not really SSF, but like party SSF, despite the fact I can already do this in a league. I want, I want I want.

There isn't any consideration or thought about design or consequences when people are asking for various changes. Very few people will respond here to keep some of the more ridiculous things in check.

Did the lab have a few things that I could agree might be issues for people, sure. But like everything in life, how you overcome the issue or challenge speaks a lot to your character, in this case not only in game, but also IRL.

There are a few people on the other side that its worthy of having discussion with, but for the large part its full of whinny entitled players that don't even try. Perhaps its those people that ruin it for the rest of you, but if you take mr massive list guy and break down who has actually imputed valuable feedback (as in more then just i hate lab, lab sux) you get very few willing to put forth enough effort to give valueable feedback.

For certain people they hate traps, I can understand that but that doesn't mean the lab is shit. That doesn't mean GGG is the dumbest fucking company ever, yet people on that side seem to resort to this sort of attitude constantly. I have my own complains about the game, but you won't see me behaving like that.


Again, this thread is served as a massive list of anything other then status quo, except it doesn't actually include ideas like you may have posted. For that reason its purpose should be more niche and subsequent related threads should be made.

redacted

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goetzjam wrote:

There are a few people on the other side that its worthy of having discussion with, but for the large part its full of whinny entitled players that don't even try.

Well, just look at the official beta lab feedback thread. They even gave us a list of points they want our opinions on, that's as clear and fair as it gets and some still think 'Lab sucks, I hate laaab' is a more helpful response. You can't work with that, would anyone genuinely care what a person that can't be arsed to answer a few simple questions thinks of your content? The day democracy moves beyond a sham is the day we find a way to strip people like that of their right to vote.

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goetzjam wrote:

Spoiler

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Where in this post do you see anything about improving it, they want to be able to get the power, essentially without doing anything at all.

I stopped there. This arrogant attitude is totally lost on me. I almost don't see ANYBODY at all wanting the points "essentially without doing nothing". If YOU view "alternatives" as nothing, that's on YOU, no one else.

I've written about improvements several times in this thread, and so have others. If you CHOOSE to ignore that, that's also on you. You're so far into the "this is what we got, deal with it" bubble, that you don't seem able of consider any possibilities what so ever.

It's almost like you think the lab is PERFECT, and the ULTIMATE way of getting the ascendancy points. Every other option in the world, every idea, every rework, is idiotic just because; "this is what we've got, deal with it".

I wonder have the world would look with that attitude.

Again why are you posting ideas that don't align with OP's if he isn't going to respect it enough to add it to the list then your just posting in a massive thread of shit ideas. Perhaps your ideas are better then his, but they aren't showcased in the OP and they are buried somewhere in this thread.

By all means go link them, because its entirely possible it was inbetween when I stopped reading this thread last time and when I started to post again.


I do think the lab should be the only way to get the AC points, because anything else after being introduced as the way we do it now would seem like a cave to cater to mass complains about something people just want easier access to. Hell the whole forums here is littered with complains about easier access.

I want higher drop rates of this, I want div cards to have higher drop rates in SSF. I want SSF, but not really SSF, but like party SSF, despite the fact I can already do this in a league. I want, I want I want.

There isn't any consideration or thought about design or consequences when people are asking for various changes. Very few people will respond here to keep some of the more ridiculous things in check.

Did the lab have a few things that I could agree might be issues for people, sure. But like everything in life, how you overcome the issue or challenge speaks a lot to your character, in this case not only in game, but also IRL.

There are a few people on the other side that its worthy of having discussion with, but for the large part its full of whinny entitled players that don't even try. Perhaps its those people that ruin it for the rest of you, but if you take mr massive list guy and break down who has actually imputed valuable feedback (as in more then just i hate lab, lab sux) you get very few willing to put forth enough effort to give valueable feedback.

For certain people they hate traps, I can understand that but that doesn't mean the lab is shit. That doesn't mean GGG is the dumbest fucking company ever, yet people on that side seem to resort to this sort of attitude constantly. I have my own complains about the game, but you won't see me behaving like that.


Again, this thread is served as a massive list of anything other then status quo, except it doesn't actually include ideas like you may have posted. For that reason its purpose should be more niche and subsequent related threads should be made.

Again, you boil things down to "easier". It's impossible to debate any alternative, options, reworks when you are predetermined that "easier" is the reason of why "we" want reworks/addition/alternatives. Using "the rest of the forums" as an argument, is just way off the point.

You want the lab to be the only way, not because you like it? Or think it's "good for the game"? But because it's wrong of GGG to listen to the "community"? To "cave"? Is that some kind of principle? I'm sure you cheese the lab, and know every mechanic of Izaro. Do YOU see any real challenge of the lab?

It baffles me. It really does.

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raics wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

There are a few people on the other side that its worthy of having discussion with, but for the large part its full of whinny entitled players that don't even try.

Well, just look at the official beta lab feedback thread. They even gave us a list of points they want our opinions on, that's as clear and fair as it gets and some still think 'Lab sucks, I hate laaab' is a more helpful response. You can't work with that, would anyone genuinely care what a person that can't be arsed to answer a few simple questions thinks of your content? The day democracy moves beyond a sham is the day we find a way to strip people like that of their right to vote.

Within a single paragraph you moved from a mediocre (at best) survey for part of a game to the right to vote in a democracy. That's quite a shift in focus.

If you ask people to fill out a survey, but set questions up so that it's a bit of a challenge for them to express their thoughts and feelings, or ask about things they don't care about, then survey responses will tend to range all over. Many won't respond at all, or they'll wander off into whatever come to mind when presented with an open ended question that could be taken in many directions (and question 1 was definitely not clear about the criteria to respond about, even if the focus was obviously comparative).

You're not mentioning the larger point, though; a large percentage of responding beta participants don't find lab enjoyable, and in fact dislike or hate it. There wasn't a question posed that specifically addressed that kind of issue directly, though, so many typed in what was most important to them about their experience in lab.

I get why GGG would be squeamish about asking "Do you find lab enjoyable?", though, because the sheer volume of dislike and hate pushed at lab over a sustained period of time pretty much guarantees that they'd get a very large number of "Not so very much" responses.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Within a single paragraph you moved from a mediocre (at best) survey for part of a game to the right to vote in a democracy. That's quite a shift in focus.

I know, it may seem tangential but that's what it boils down to. The concept of democracy is everyone deciding for everyone, but do the opinions of those that are concerned by nothing but the ass they're sitting on and are too lazy to articulate themselves properly hold any real value? But yeah, we're fortunate this isn't democracy despite some trying to sell it as one.

We might talk for days on end about the questions GGG didn't ask, we can debate why and what would the answers be, and it would be worth half a used cigarette filter. They asked the questions they need the answers to, not the ones we would like to answer.

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Within a single paragraph you moved from a mediocre (at best) survey for part of a game to the right to vote in a democracy. That's quite a shift in focus.

I know, it may seem tangential but that's what it boils down to. The concept of democracy is everyone deciding for everyone, but do the opinions of those that are concerned by nothing but the ass they're sitting on and are too lazy to articulate themselves properly hold any real value? But yeah, we're fortunate this isn't democracy despite some trying to sell it as one.

We might talk for days on end about the questions GGG didn't ask, we can debate why and what would the answers be, and it would be worth half a used cigarette filter. They asked the questions they need the answers to, not the ones we would like to answer.

Your starting point is that they asked the "right" questions from their perspective as developers. That's an opinion you presented as fact, at which point you played "pin the blame for the dislike and hate" on the *players*, instead of on the ones who created lab.

If GGG had more interest in actually understanding what players like or dislike about lab, then they could have asked questions relevant for exploring that issue and they probably would have gotten detailed responses. Instead, they asked questions that are likely to justify the changes they're making for beta and (perhaps) to support further minor tweaks to what goes into lab and what comes out of it. Perhaps those questions are relevant for the internal politics of GGG surrounding lab. But, most of them are not likely to be interesting to those responding to the survey who find lab unenjoyable.