SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

raics wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

"

raics wrote:

Of course, the complaint needs to have at least something to do with skill or knowledge, obviously enough, you won't see 'git good' on a 'give us back the globe girls' thread.

Why did you suddenly assume I wasn't talking specifically about the Labyrinth?

What's the difference? If the complaint is about something that has nothing to do with skill and you see 'git good' it's just someone's idea of a joke, it isn't even trolling if it makes zero sense.

The difference is, having a discussion in accordance to a frame of reference, and then suddenly ignoring that frame of reference, makes the discussion make zero sense.

We were talking about the Labyrinth.

And then you applied my statement as if it were talking about the entire game.

Thus, yeah.

Makes no sense.

But here, let me put things back on topic. My point is actually really simple:

A challenging and fun speedbump is every bit as effective as an unfun speedbump, so long as the challenge remains static.

Any position that states that a gateway to power must be tedious is therefore not defensible, in my opinion. The idea that the only way to make the Labyrinth more fun is to remove the elements that make it challenging (to your SKILL, not to your PATIENCE) is a red herring at best, or strawman at worst.

Right now the Labyrinth and its associated reddit meta discourage exploration (I talk about this in detail in a dedicated thread, so I won't rehash it here). Tweaking the Labyrinth so that it will encourage exploration would not take significant amounts of development resources (I know that is a major concern people here have, and that's fair enough), but it would make the experience feel a lot more rewarding for people who don't like the content right now.

I'll admit I was expecting more, you know. I come to the thread to see what makes you tick, are there any good arguments against lab and so on and it turns out it pretty much boils down to 'we don't like it'. Now, not saying that isn't a valid complaint, because it is, but it's something you need to have critical mass for, if you want devs to do something, won't do anything in small doses.

As far as the other things mentioned go, there isn't anything really solid here, if you didn't manage to convince me the high ground is yours you don't stand a chance selling devs any of this.
* Some things in the lab don't belong in PoE.
- A lot of things in the game aren't exactly traditional for the genre and we aren't complaining much, lab is just non-traditional and non-trivial at the same time. Other than that, devs decide what belongs in PoE and what doesn't, not genre conventions.
* It's quasi-HC.
- Maps can also be a one shot opportunity, and content with limited access isn't exactly unheard of in online games, dungeons with timed access or ones you need to restart partially or fully if you mess up are a common feature.
* You need a specialized build for it.
- Never had a decent build shown to me that can't do it. A special one is needed only to farm it reliably but that's common for specialized farming spots.
* It takes a lot of time
- Not really, compared to the total time an average player spends on his character, and judging by the percentage of players who do ascend it's well worth the time.
* It's hard (though apparently nobody says this).
- Just practice more, anyone can get better at anything if he puts in the effort.
* It's boring.
- Go in earlier and it will be more exciting.

Sure, it's far from perfect so we can expect small tweaks in future, but my best guess is the lab will not change substantially. What might be able to tip he scales is the console release, they will pay close attention to the feedback there because they're trying to hit the new market. The trouble is I'm expecting the console audience is more used to content like that so they won't pay it much mind, we'll see.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Right now the Labyrinth and its associated reddit meta discourage exploration (I talk about this is detail in a dedicated thread, so I won't rehash it here). Tweaking the Labyrinth so that it will encourage exploration would not take significant amounts of development resources (I know that is a major concern people here have, and that's fair enough), but it would make the experience feel a lot more rewarding for people who don't like the content right now.

That's actually my major complaint with the lab, I'd like to see it fully random. Unfortunately, devs also want it to make a good farming ground and it's kinda hard to have both, made a rework suggestion that might end up functional but it would be a lot of work, not much chance anything similar would see the light of day.

"

raics wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Right now the Labyrinth and its associated reddit meta discourage exploration (I talk about this is detail in a dedicated thread, so I won't rehash it here). Tweaking the Labyrinth so that it will encourage exploration would not take significant amounts of development resources (I know that is a major concern people here have, and that's fair enough), but it would make the experience feel a lot more rewarding for people who don't like the content right now.

That's actually my major complaint with the lab, I'd like to see it fully random. Unfortunately, devs also want it to make a good farming ground and it's kinda hard to have both, made a rework suggestion that might end up functional but it would be a lot of work, not much chance anything similar would see the light of day.

I'll just touch on this portion since my position on the rest has been fairly well established.

I think a main design component (driving force or motivation behind the design decisions) of the Labyrinth was based around a streamer-content ploy. It's a daily race, and streamers loved streaming races. It also has a big payout at the end, and players loved watching big loot explosions to vicariously get that thrill.

That's just one component, but I think it was a strong one, and partially a reason behind the reluctance to change certain aspects.

I think we will see more elements added to the game that appeal to giving streamers more content that they think players will want to watch them play. It's part of their marketing, after all.

"

Zaludoz wrote:

I think we will see more elements added to the game that appeal to giving streamers more content that they think players will want to watch them play. It's part of their marketing, after all.

Who knows, there might be something in there for us too and PoE is probably on the slim side when endgame content is concerned, there's volume but I don't think there's enough variety. Races are a cool concept but their biggest flaw is that the time invested in them is wasted because you can't transfer anything over. Can't shake the feeling that some avoid races because they'd hang themselves if a mirror drops in one :)

However, I think some race concepts could come over to main game well, like descent, which could work something like this:
- You start at map tier 1 and no mods
- Each area after the first one adds a random mod up to maximum 9 mods, they can be map mods, sextant mods and league mods
- When you clear that one, tier increases to 2 and you start stacking mods again
- Rinse and repeat, you can't return to hideout, if you die you start over, you win after clearing tier 16

Sure, it's free maps but you start low every time and that's a waste of time so I don't think it would be very efficient farming but I expect it would make for some good television.

"

raics wrote:

Mind, you, there's a difference between saying 'I don't like swimming' and 'swimming sucks', for the former you don't need to know how to swim properly and for the latter you do.

Mind you I do not have to eat shit myself to know that it is a bad idea

@Fruz
I already quoted you. Don't wait and reread your quote
Your (flawed) logic:
Somebody considers lab boring=>he can't do it=>he should L2P=>then he will find lab interesting
You simply can't comprehend that there are people who can farm the lab, but do not like it (or it is boring for them)

You haven't quoted what you claimed you did, because it simply isn't there, it's easy.
And you can't because .... wait for it .... it isn't there, obviously.

"

Nishrek wrote:

Somebody considers lab boring=>he can't do it=>he should L2P=>then he will find lab interesting

Wow, that's your flawed logic here, it's ridiculous lol.
Let me explain you (one more time)
Somebody finds the lab boring => There is most likely a difficulty problem there.
The end.
Going from "he isn't good at X" => "He should get good at X" out of nothing is plain stupid.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Right now the Labyrinth and its associated reddit meta discourage exploration (I talk about this is detail in a dedicated thread, so I won't rehash it here). Tweaking the Labyrinth so that it will encourage exploration would not take significant amounts of development resources (I know that is a major concern people here have, and that's fair enough), but it would make the experience feel a lot more rewarding for people who don't like the content right now.

GGG cornered themselves with the racing, it makes it then really difficult to go for a full randomization from this point, imho.

I would also prefer a randomization, and more incentive to get to the side areas because most silver caches are not worth it.

"

Fruz wrote:

Somebody finds the lab boring => There is most likely a difficulty problem there.
The end.
Going from "he isn't good at X" => "He should get good at X" out of nothing is plain stupid.

This is your logic.

"

Fruz wrote:

In which case there is a l2p issue.

You at least understood that it is stupid. We have some progress

"

Fruz wrote:

...
Let me explain you (one more time)
Somebody finds the lab boring => There is most likely a difficulty problem there.
The end.
...

You incorrectly assert that you didn't say l2p. The quote above says most likely l2p.

Please look above. You seem to be getting tripped up in your own denials!

Ahh I see, you people only take everything literally, that makes sense considering what you have been spitting here though :].

"There is a l2p issue" != You need to learn how to play.
It just means that you are not good at it.

You could do a slight effort to make it go quicker, it's true in most cases, but that wasn't the point at all.


I didn't think that the conversation would go so low as I would need to explain you that lol.


But let's have one more look at how silly you guys sound :

"

Nishrek wrote:

Somebody considers lab boring=>he can't do it=>he should L2P=>then he will find lab interesting

Amazing, this is just mind blowing, isn't it ?
And you dare talk about logic after that ??

/rofl

"

Fruz wrote:

Ahh I see, you people only take everything literally, that makes sense considering what you have been spitting here though :].

"There is a l2p issue" != You need to learn how to play.
It just means that you are not good at it.

You could do a slight effort to make it go quicker, it's true in most cases, but that wasn't the point at all.


I didn't think that the conversation would go so low as I would need to explain you that lol.


But let's have one more look at how silly you guys sound :

"

Nishrek wrote:

Somebody considers lab boring=>he can't do it=>he should L2P=>then he will find lab interesting

Amazing, this is just mind blowing, isn't it ?
And you dare talk about logic after that ??

/rofl

Perhaps the issue here is that you think that you're just trying to assert an interesting proposal, "learn to play", that has no logical connection to anything else in the world??? It is our fault for trying to make sense of this assertion in the context of this thread. It should instead be looked at as a dangling thought with no logical connection to any other assertion or cause and affect? Yes it is mind blowing that you still haven't been able to make sense of your own statements and instead seem to contradict yourself at every turn!