SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Zalhan2 wrote:

Any evidence you will just say isn't real, no one is wasting their time. Read the thread it's pretty obvious by lists and posts and scores of threads (which no other issue since FFA loot has had).

You're using a common trolling technique to muddy the waters of an issue even the devs has said is real and responded to it.

So I'm trolling, because I'm asking for valid, ACTUAL information and data, rather than your assumptions and made up numbers that are only in your mind because you want them to be real? You're delusional. You just believe what you want to believe, hear what you want to hear and disregard any other piece of information, especially if it may disprove this twisted truth you hold in your mind.

It's not exactly the first time that I have a discussion with someone like you, so I know how this ends. Yet I hope that you'll realize one day that the only trap you should be worried about, is the one you've sprung in your mind.

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ewolow wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Irrelevant, most people have definitely better to do than coming here argue about the lab, even if they like it or don't mind it.

If you want the AC point though, GGG is "forcing" you to go through it.
Deal with it.
Simple as that.

I knew we'd find the other one...!

No mention of me? I know I haven't been very active lately, but that stings, man. :(

I'll defend the Lab until the last moment, not because of the Lab or anything to do with it, but simply because this whole entitled culture we seem to be slowly slipping into in the gaming world nowadays has to be put to a stop.

Gone are the days where developers are the developers and not the players. Now we have people like OP who tell developers how to create, run and maintain their product. Nah. I know I don't have to stand up for GGG, but I like them and if I can contribute to their freedom to develop the game in their vision, I'll do so.

I have adored this game since the moment I first heard of it. I couldn't play the alpha because I was too late to sign up, but I've waited desperately for the beta to finally let me play and I haven't stopped playing since if I could get away with it irl. Much like how PoE development started, I'm also passionate about playing it and I'd like to think I've done my part contributing over the years.

Anyway, contrary to popular belief here, I am not a troll or a white knight or just a bitter old man. I'm just a regular guy, living a regular life that happens to believe in something that may not fall in line with some others. I'm fine with that and I'm open for discussion, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: That's no longer what this thread is.

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Xavathos wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Irrelevant, most people have definitely better to do than coming here argue about the lab, even if they like it or don't mind it.

If you want the AC point though, GGG is "forcing" you to go through it.
Deal with it.
Simple as that.

I knew we'd find the other one...!

No mention of me? I know I haven't been very active lately, but that stings, man. :(

I'll defend the Lab until the last moment, not because of the Lab or anything to do with it, but simply because this whole entitled culture we seem to be slowly slipping into in the gaming world nowadays has to be put to a stop.

Gone are the days where developers are the developers and not the players. Now we have people like OP who tell developers how to create, run and maintain their product. Nah. I know I don't have to stand up for GGG, but I like them and if I can contribute to their freedom to develop the game in their vision, I'll do so.

No, no mention of you. I don't see you constantly sniping people on threads about the lab.

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Xavathos wrote:

I have adored this game since the moment I first heard of it. I couldn't play the alpha because I was too late to sign up, but I've waited desperately for the beta to finally let me play and I haven't stopped playing since if I could get away with it irl. Much like how PoE development started, I'm also passionate about playing it and I'd like to think I've done my part contributing over the years.

Anyway, contrary to popular belief here, I am not a troll or a white knight or just a bitter old man. I'm just a regular guy, living a regular life that happens to believe in something that may not fall in line with some others. I'm fine with that and I'm open for discussion, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: That's no longer what this thread is.

You'll forgive me, but I don't know what your primary concern is.

My position on the matter is to remove the ascension points from the lab, keep everything else the same.

That way, if you enjoy the lab, do the lab. Get the rewards and the enchants, but don't force me to do lab on every single character I want to roll.

Do you find that to be unreasonable or having some sense of entitlement?

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ewolow wrote:

My position on the matter is to remove the ascension points from the lab, keep everything else the same.

That way, if you enjoy the lab, do the lab. Get the rewards and the enchants, but don't force me to do lab on every single character I want to roll.

Do you find that to be unreasonable or having some sense of entitlement?

My position is remove the expectation that you should get the AC points for anything else but the lab, that way everything stays the same.


You aren't forced to do the lab, you want to do the lab because you want the AC points, if you make builds that don't want or use AC points then you won't feel you need them.

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ewolow wrote:

Do you find that to be unreasonable or having some sense of entitlement?

Depends, saying 'I don't like it and I won't be using your merchandise anymore' is completely within your rights as a consumer but the legality of 'I want you to do this instead' is suspect, products have to follow the development plan after all. The thing is, we have no idea how high should the critical mass of people screaming 'remove ascendancy points from lab' even be... 30%, maybe 50, even as high as 80? The amount we got here so far doesn't seem to make them very uncomfortable, or at least 'we know there are people that don't like the lab and we intend to do exactly nothing about it' doesn't sound uncomfortable to me.

Well, at least compared to trading, whenever Chris has to make any kind of statement about trading he's sweating as if someone is feeding him a fried weta, no mayo.

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raics wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

Do you find that to be unreasonable or having some sense of entitlement?

Depends, saying 'I don't like it and I won't be using your merchandise anymore' is completely within your rights as a consumer but the legality of 'I want you to do this instead' is suspect, products have to follow the development plan after all. The thing is, we have no idea how high should the critical mass of people screaming 'remove ascendancy points from lab' even be... 30%, maybe 50, even as high as 80? The amount we got here so far doesn't seem to make them very uncomfortable, or at least 'we know there are people that don't like the lab and we intend to do exactly nothing about it' doesn't sound uncomfortable to me.

Well, at least compared to trading, whenever Chris has to make any kind of statement about trading he's sweating as if someone is feeding him a fried weta, no mayo.

Exactly. But trading has been a subject for many years and certain promises have been made in the past that they have yet to make happen. It's totally justified to feel a certain level of stress addressing that specific topic.

The AC point/Lab on the other hand... I don't see it. Besides, everyone's entitled to their own opinion on things, like you said. None of us are entitled to anything when it comes to the game though. I've spent huge amounts of money on points and packs and various other things and I'm entitled to exactly the same as my F2P friend that hasn't spent a cent, my opinion.

That people share their opinion and discuss them here is not what I have a problem with at all, even if some seem to think I do. The problem to me is what this thread has become, and the underlying thought behind the creation of it. This is more of a petition than a discussion and since when did game development become a democracy? We don't count votes or signatures, we read patch notes.

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Xavathos wrote:

The AC point/Lab on the other hand... I don't see it. Besides, everyone's entitled to their own opinion on things, like you said. None of us are entitled to anything when it comes to the game though. I've spent huge amounts of money on points and packs and various other things and I'm entitled to exactly the same as my F2P friend that hasn't spent a cent, my opinion.

That people share their opinion and discuss them here is not what I have a problem with at all, even if some seem to think I do. The problem to me is what this thread has become, and the underlying thought behind the creation of it. This is more of a petition than a discussion and since when did game development become a democracy? We don't count votes or signatures, we read patch notes.

I disagree with this. If a developer's income model depends on "donations/support" or even a subscription, rather than selling a product, then they have crossed over from developing their own product with their own financial backers, to essentially, a service provider with each person paying them being their new boss (or lose their future donations/support). If GGG doesn't really "need" donations or support anymore, they are truly free to create whatever they want, and hope people buy the finished product. (that's not the case as I understand it)

For a game undergoing constant updates like this, nothing is set in stone, and if the customers are not satisfied, they can, and should, voice their "feedback and suggestions" on the official forums. I just wish more people who simply "tolerate" the Labyrinth and want it made non-mandatory, but like the Ascendancy Points too much to not play it, would take a firmer stand on the subject via no purchases of support packs until the devs see what's going on, since money talks.

I think people are just too masochistic, apathetic or submissive (accepting everything that comes from GGG as something that will never change, so LIVE WITH IT OR LEAVE - nonsense), and this plays right into GGG's hands. I want to see the game get better for more people. While I don't think it's a democracy either, well thought out feedback and suggestions should be considered. Just 1 person's simple feedback, if good, should be enough to enact change, IMO. The threads that are simply outbursts of frustration that don't offer suggestions don't particularly help the cause, but they do showcase the strong feelings of dissatisfaction players have with the content - they're just easy to pick on, and say "git gud" instead of taking from them the main point.

I don't want to take away what's fun from people, I just want to see an alternative to the labyrinth minigame that actually fits the game's original design. (I've made 2 main suggestions that keep the labyrinth lore in tact, keep the original labyrinth in tact, and provide such an alternative - but they mostly go ignored)

Some people just want to see the game grow and become even greater. I think the lab is fairly average in terms of an ARPG experience when it actually has potential to be one of the best. Of course that is my opinion. I constantly share what can be changed and why they should be changed.

I however do realize that a lab rework wouldn't happen anytime soon, if ever. GGG as company care more about creating the next big thing instead of refining older concepts. A lot of league mechanics fall short or feel a tad outdated but they remain the same way as they have been. I never thought 3.0 would have any lab changes outside of dealing with the 10 acts and not 3 difficulties anymore. But maybe down the line when they don't have as much on the plate to work on.

I do however find it curious how people think just because GGG has a vision for this game that its the best one. Maybe companies have visions for the game and the result is hit and miss. Especially in a game constantly updated like this one, we the players are more of the testers then GGG. That is why a ton of feedback from streamers/reddit/forums actually do change how the game is.

I made a huge post outside this thread on the lab, and I feel like I made some strong points on how the lab just doesn't mesh well with core elements of ARPG when it could have. I still believe that, but my idea may not be the best, it is my opinion after all. But I have heard many solid ideas on how to alter the lab to create a more interesting experience then what we have now. Maybe in the future we'll see them.

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Zaludoz wrote:

would take a firmer stand on the subject via no purchases of support packs until the devs see what's going on, since money talks.

You money obviously doesn't.

Yet your are here whinning.
I on the other hand donated quite a bit, and I sure as hell do not want the AC points decoupled from the labyrinth, I would be sad to see GGG bending the knee to a bunch of crybabies ( a few individuals have made actuall good suggestions though, a few ).

They are watching the feedback section, and the message is clear : They don't deemd moving AC to another part of the game worth it ( probably not needed, not for the good of the game, and surely not what they would like to do ), deal with it.

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e1337donkey wrote:

I do however find it curious how people think just because GGG has a vision for this game that its the best one.

They have data, they can judge.
Everybody here is freaking biased and has no clue of what the actual data are, and many here think that they just have the best and easy solution, and that they know better than professionals how to do ( a few people do give constructive feedback however ).

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ewolow wrote:

My position on the matter is to remove the ascension points from the lab, keep everything else the same.

This makes no sense. It's like saying to GGG: ok, you've worked several months on this Lab thing and Ascension concept, but now just revert it. Forget about lore, about the concept of ascension being a trial and just gib me the points in some other "easier" way.

It's not gonna happen, so adjust your expectations accordingly.

I don't even expect GGG to improve the helm enchant BS & uber trial RNG spawn BS, even tho both would be simple minor tweaks and help improve the experience greatly. Well, maybe they'll tackle this in 2020 or 2021...