SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

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Is it not true that there are three general reasons to run lab?

1. Ascendancy points
2. Racing
3. Enchants

Here we are discussing running labyrinth for the ascendancy points. When Racing or going for enchants the run is going to be different in that people will be going through once unpracticed and not rushing as much. Is a different ladder better for trying to get average times for an ascendancy points run?

EDIT: Actually looking at Perandus Normal, it is about the same. About half of the times are over 30 minutes.

There is 3 reasons in merciless and 2 reasons in normal\cruel. You don't run normal\cruel for enchantments because they are weaker versions then the ones you get in merciless.

In terms of the ascendancy points, you are ASCENDING when you complete the lab, like it fucking literally doesn't make sense to reward them anywhere else. Racing is just a very minor and very niche focus of the lab, so really you run normal and cruel once per character and merciless more then that if you want.


First off perandus is a SC league, so naturally the players there are going to be "worst" then anywhere else, I would argue that perandus would be worst then even standard in terms of runs, but because standard people dont have to run normal on their previously leveled characters and just have to run it in merciless once the times are skewed.

Normal is also going to be the lab that takes the longest regardless because your characters aren't as developed, less gear, less movement speed, ect.

If the average is 30 min like you are suggesting, then the people over that time need to focus on getting better, if they don't enjoy the lab. They can do this in many ways, look at the daily reddit thread, ask about how to navigate and reduce time, pay for a carry, ect.

The lab is literally no different then people taking longer do level in quest or such, as stated already here many people dont enjoy various aspects of the game, GGG adding one more isn't that big of a deal considering the lab follows the more traditional GGG approach on game design. Its actually one of the few things recently that they have done that isn't a direct appeal to the casual players, maybe thats why I enjoy it so much.

First, the median for all runs seems to be 30 minutes. That is all three kinds of runs, ascending, racing and enchants put together. Racing and enchant runs are going to be the lions share of the faster times. The ascending runs are going to be the lion's share of the slower times. This means that the average for the ascending runs is going to be slower than the median for all three type runs put together. I'll guess 45 to 60 minutes as closer to the average for an ascendancy run.

Second, suggesting that practice and getting better will solve the problem is ignoring the real problem. The problem is that trap game play is disliked by some people. Forcing people to run through content that has a game play they dislike is going to make them dislike playing that game. That is why people play games that they find fun and don't play games that aren't fun to them. For example, I hate playing Prince of Persia because I hate trap game play, therefore I don't play Prince of Persia. It doesn't make sense to tell me to just practice playing Prince of Persia. It isn't really going to help. I'm still not going to like it, if I practice it and get better at it, I still won't like it. I don't like trap game play whether I practice or not, whether I'm good at it or not. I don't like trap game play. It is not fun. It is boring and tedious.

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Turtledove wrote:

First, the median for all runs seems to be 30 minutes. That is all three kinds of runs, ascending, racing and enchants put together. Racing and enchant runs are going to be the lions share of the faster times. The ascending runs are going to be the lion's share of the slower times. This means that the average for the ascending runs is going to be slower than the median for all three type runs put together. I'll guess 45 to 60 minutes as closer to the average for an ascendancy run.

Second, you ignore the fact that getting better isn't the issue. The issue is that trap game play is disliked by some people. Forcing people to run through content that has a game play they dislike is going to make them dislike playing that game. That is why people play games that they find fun and don't play games that aren't fun to them. For example, I hate playing Prince of Persia because I hate trap game play, therefore I don't play Prince of Persia. It doesn't make sense to tell me to just practice playing Prince of Persia. It isn't really going to help. I'm still not going to like it, if I practice it and get better at it, I still won't like it. I don't like trap game play whether I practice or not, whether I'm good at it or not. I don't like trap game play. It is not fun. It is boring and tedious.

That again is also normal lab, not cruel or merciless where you are more prepared. Just ignore this point, its fine.

45 min is an unacceptable amount of time, [Removed by Support] , which people can do under 10 min easily. Like idk how else to explain it to you, if you take that long, [Removed by Support].


As far as forcing people to do stuff, no one is forcing you to do it. The difficult of the game did not increase when these were added, in addition I dont like playing characters really pre level 40, ideally pre level 60, but i'm still "forced" to do it because I need to in order to gain what I want. Using the argument here is pointless.


Lets actually get real on discussion. No one gives an honest fuck that you don't like the lab or you don't enjoy it. The fact of the matter is you want a benefit and that benefit requires you to do something, regardless if you like it or not. Trying to, much like the OP of this thread manipulate people or the devs to try and change this is a pretty futile point, I'm not sure why this thread is still going on and I'm likely to stop reading it at all because its the same circle jerk mentality over and over.


It just repeats "i dont like traps" "i dont wanna be forced to do anything i dont want" and similar QQ behavior instead of interesting discussion.

Not only that, you play in standard, you literally only have to do it once per character, which is in merciless. So not sure why the people affected by this the least even give 2 shits considering you have the spend the least amount of time of everyone to do the lab. (please tell me you werernt one of those people taking 30+ min to do normal lab, when you didnt have to do it in normal at all, LOL)

First, the times for Labyrinth runs are not my times. They are the times for the general PoE players. Those are the facts. Belittling and ridiculing those general PoE players does not change those facts. Here let's try it this way. You are an amazing Labyrinth player. Most everyone else is pathetically beneath your amazing and awesome abilities at running Labyrinth. Us inferior Labyrinth runners seem to have an average of 45 to 60 minutes when doing an ascendancy run. Which simply demonstrates how much superior you are to everyone else. Thank you for deeming to bestow us with with you attention by belittling and ridiculing us for our inferiority.

Second, game play style is a fundamental when playing a game. It is more basic and fundamental than liking or disliking a certain boss, challenge, quest, mob, or map.

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Turtledove wrote:

Second, game play style is a fundamental when playing a game. It is more basic and fundamental than liking or disliking a certain boss, challenge, quest, mob, or map.

Yes, and as the game continues to grow and develop over time more diverse content is added. I can only hope that future content mirrors the ingenuity and developmental genius of the labyrinth.

Again, if the lab drives you totally insane, just bypass the Ascendancy classes altogether. Everyone that hates the lab enough to post negative feedback every single day should shun the lab and forgot ascending. You could have a slogan too:

"Strength through complaints! Solidarity through weakness!"

If you break outside your shell of "why is this different" and at least TRY to appreciate it BECAUSE it is different I think you will find the lab to be a cool addition to the game.

Lastly, Ascendancy classes were added on the contingency of lab completion in each difficulty. I truly hope this never changes. It's perfect the way it is and if players' feel it is too strenuous and stressful to accomplish in the supposed (3) hours [rounding up] per character it will take then they should not Ascend.

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Second, game play style is a fundamental when playing a game. It is more basic and fundamental than liking or disliking a certain boss, challenge, quest, mob, or map.

Yes, and as the game continues to grow and develop over time more diverse content is added. I can only hope that future content mirrors the ingenuity and developmental genius of the labyrinth.

How exactly is recreating 1980's video game content "ingenuity and developmental genius" ?

Frogger, contra and castlevania may have been "ingenuity and developmental genius" back in the 80's, but I would hardly think that copying old school 80's games takes much effort.

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goetzjam wrote:

45 min is an unacceptable amount of time, you literally have to be slow in the head to take that long doing the lab, which people can do under 10 min easily. Like idk how else to explain it to you, if you take that long, you simply are too stupid to even play PoE "correctly" IMO.

..without words.

Finally there is someone, who is *the one*, who knows how to play correctly poe. And dont dare you to do a lab-run in more then 10 min. You can only be a slowhead.

What a poor white knight, close to a psychological diagnosis..*IMO*

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Khoranth wrote:

How exactly is recreating 1980's video game content "ingenuity and developmental genius" ?

Hyperbole is obviously lost on you. It was meant to be humorous.

It does not change the fact that time spent QQ'ing about the lab could be spent completing the lab and getting those totally optional Ascendancy points.

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Khoranth wrote:

How exactly is recreating 1980's video game content "ingenuity and developmental genius" ?

Frogger, contra and castlevania may have been "ingenuity and developmental genius" back in the 80's, but I would hardly think that copying old school 80's games takes much effort.

You'd be pretty much ignoring the technical aspects of the labyrinth implementation. There is actually a lot of genius, but probably for the wrong crowd given the reaction we've seen.

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goetzjam wrote:

45 min is an unacceptable amount of time, you literally have to be slow in the head to take that long doing the lab, which people can do under 10 min easily. Like idk how else to explain it to you, if you take that long, you simply are too stupid to even play PoE "correctly" IMO.

Some people take their time, they dont follow guidlines or the HYPE of speedrunning. Some do it as fast as humanly possible, other want to clear the whole lab and then ascend to have the whole experience. You already showcased how narrow-minded you are in the previous posts, now you take that a step further and claim anyone doing the lab not in the quickest way is slowminded and stupid? You are not fit to post seriously, your comments are not even funny anymore (cause the previous were so out of content and far fetched from the truth that only as a joke they could be perceived) they are simply ill-mannered. Shame on you, and your uncultivated personality.

You like the fast way, others might like the slow way. Is any of those two ways better than the other in regard of fun and enjoyment of the game? You follow the masses like a sheep and do quick runs skipping 90% of the labyrinth, others follow their own playstyle and do the puzzles and the silver doors, does it matter though when both have fun? No it doesnt, so what point are you trying to make? Exactly, no point just plain elitistic trashtalking, only natural though from a prejudiced shitposter.

Wake up white knights and see the issues at hand, your point of view is but a fragment of how players play PoE. Dont regard your way better than the countless others ways. Try to see things from the other side (that requires a bit of brain and imagination though and might prove difficult for some of you).

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

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Khoranth wrote:

How exactly is recreating 1980's video game content "ingenuity and developmental genius" ?

Hyperbole is obviously lost on you. It was meant to be humorous.

It does not change the fact that time spent QQ'ing about the lab could be spent completing the lab and getting those totally optional Ascendancy points.

So so audacious and ignorant it hurts my brains, here take a look at this and for fucks sake let this be the last time i link that. Its the podcast with Chris Wilson, go to 39minute and hear up to 40minute to understant if labyrinth is optional or not. Thats coming from the lead developer of GGG mind you (incase your are honestly that naive)


So white knights read the OP again and again and again, 1.5 month after the original post and you have yet to comprehend the issues presented there. Judging by the comments i still see, you either have huge comprehension problems (or reading disability, in which case it better to check that up) or are so willingly ignorant and egocentric that you prefer to keep making fool of yourselves rather than accepting simple things.

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Regulator wrote:

So so audacious and ignorant it hurts my brains, here take a look at this and for fucks sake let this be the last time i link that. Its the podcast with Chris Wilson, go to 39minute and hear up to 40minute to understant if labyrinth is optional or not. Thats coming from the lead developer of GGG mind you (incase your are honestly that naive)

Chris implies it is not as optional as Atziri. He does not say "Obviously Ascendancy is essential to gameplay" so the fact that you read a lot more into his comment than what he actually said indicates a clear point of view bias on your part. The only thing he strongly expressed was a desire to see more feedback on layouts from the community posted to Reddit.

It also very much sounded like there was nothing resembling even a remote desire to remove Ascendancy from the lab or to shorten the lab in anyway whatsoever.