SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

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jhnsmth wrote:

We have seen changes in the gameplay already, nothing is carved in stone.
I remember when we had no checkpoints in this game and had to run back from the nearest
waypoint.

So I hope GGG revisit its design choices about the lab (and we get 5 continues like the maps).

Yeah I remember that too all the time because I play HC. This game isn't meant to be a hold your hand style game, checkpoints honestly should have never been added, but it was done so to make it easier on SC players basically just to zerg the content.

That isn't what they want done in the lab considering how few times you "have to" do it.


Again my signature is a perfect example of the "issue" players are unwilling to learn anything and just want it for free or easier. The lab can be done in 1 swoop fairly quickly.

Checkpoints are absolutely required in an ARPG. One must be able to collect loot and deposit it or sell it someplace. One needs to be able to go to bed and then the next day be able to continue with the story somehow. In other words, I would consider any waypoint or portal a checkpoint. You mention zerg, so perhaps what you're getting at is preventing the zerg of the content? I play softcore but I hate the idea of zerging content and don't do it myself. To me it is not fun and would just kind of "violate" the role playing nature of the game. However, I also believe that the correct way to play the game is to have fun. I don't see any harm if someone else has fun zerging content, as long as they're having fun. I also don't see any harm in GGG making a design decision that this certain content can't be "zerged" that way.

Regarding the lab being done very quickly, check the labyrinth ladders. I think a reasonable time frame for people that are not rushing through for enchants or the ladder race is 45 to 60 minutes. So a question is whether or not requiring 45 to 60 minutes in one sitting without a checkpoint is reasonable. My view is that for some people that will be too long, i.e., the baby is waking up or might be squeezing the time available for one sitting.

I think people are interested in learning and understand that if everything was free in the game then nothing would be worth anything and the game wouldn't be fun.

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Turtledove wrote:

Checkpoints are absolutely required in an ARPG. One must be able to collect loot and deposit it or sell it someplace. One needs to be able to go to bed and then the next day be able to continue with the story somehow. In other words, I would consider any waypoint or portal a checkpoint. You mention zerg, so perhaps what you're getting at is preventing the zerg of the content? I play softcore but I hate the idea of zerging content and don't do it myself. To me it is not fun and would just kind of "violate" the role playing nature of the game. However, I also believe that the correct way to play the game is to have fun. I don't see any harm if someone else has fun zerging content, as long as they're having fun. I also don't see any harm in GGG making a design decision that this certain content can't be "zerged" that way.

Regarding the lab being done very quickly, check the labyrinth ladders.

I think people are interested in learning and understand that if everything was free in the game then nothing would be worth anything and the game wouldn't be fun.

Waypoints are required in normal gameplay, not checkpoints. In terms of checkpoints or somewhere to stash\sell items in the lab, the room before the 3 boss fights you have access to stash and can sell later.

"checkpoint' in poe is where you play in SC and if you die you can respawn in the same zone instead of respawning in town and having to go to the nearest WP and go towards where you were going. That is what a checkpoint is in poe.

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I think a reasonable time frame for people that are not rushing through for enchants or the ladder race is 45 to 60 minutes

Lol, are you freaking kidding me.

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My view is that for some people that will be too long, i.e., the baby is waking up or might be squeezing the time available for one sitting.

Well if you spend THAT FUCKING LONG doing it, then of course its "too long" for some people. (hint dont spend that long doing it)


As for having IRL things interrupt you, you have a "safe zone" 3 times in the lab (technically 4) before each boss fight and right after him in the treasure room. The lab shouldn't take anyone very long to do. Anything about 20 min simply is unacceptable, except maybe in normal at the very start of a league.

If you spend more time then this doing the lab, check on reddit for the layout guide on how to navigate that day or if just doing it for the points, pay someone ~5c and get carried, they will navigate and guide you thru the labs, you simply have to make it over various obstacles.

Here's a description of the labyrinth ladder times (since you apparently didn't look at it?).

Normal standard ladder is best to look at because that is likely the fewest people racing or rushing for enchants, since we are not discussing racing or rushing for enchants. There's 40 times. About half are over 30 minutes.

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Turtledove wrote:

Here's a description of the labyrinth ladder times (since you apparently didn't look at it?).

Normal standard ladder is best to look at because that is likely the fewest people racing or rushing for enchants, since we are not discussing racing or rushing for enchants. There's 40 times. About half are over 30 minutes.

Did you know that standard lab is optional for characters created before the lab? Thats right you only have to do the lab in merciless to get all 6 points for those characters.

So come back with some more relative information. Not only that this information is simply 1 days worth and TBH i dont know how many golden doors is in normal lab today.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Here's a description of the labyrinth ladder times (since you apparently didn't look at it?).

Normal standard ladder is best to look at because that is likely the fewest people racing or rushing for enchants, since we are not discussing racing or rushing for enchants. There's 40 times. About half are over 30 minutes.

Did you know that standard lab is optional for characters created before the lab? Thats right you only have to do the lab in merciless to get all 6 points for those characters.

So come back with some more relative information. Not only that this information is simply 1 days worth and TBH i dont know how many golden doors is in normal lab today.

Is it not true that there are three general reasons to run lab?

1. Ascendancy points
2. Racing
3. Enchants

Here we are discussing running labyrinth for the ascendancy points. When Racing or going for enchants the run is going to be different in that people will be going through once unpracticed and not rushing as much. Is a different ladder better for trying to get average times for an ascendancy points run?

EDIT: Actually looking at Perandus Normal, it is about the same. About half of the times are over 30 minutes.

Spoken like an envisionist and a gentleman.



Your reaction and answers (in previous posts too) implies that everyone should be running like a brainless chicken aka follow the rest of the sheeps and their speedruns disergarding his own playstyle. Its also based on the fact that in order to do lab runs in less that 10minutes one must be familiar with it, and how can one be familiar with it when he is not doing it daily but only 2 or three times on his one character? And to take that a step further, how can one make even a second run when he cant enjoy a thing of that playstyle? How can one make even one run when he cant focus ? How can one make even the trials when he is sick and tired of that playstyle? Cause he played that game everyday for 2 years 20years ago when he was 15 and was playing frogger and later on, prince of persia and contra

You realise just how bad these kind of comments are, huh? That there is pure narrow-mindness cause you try to give answers purely based on your experience and your point of view only. Players with that attitude are bad for the game, period. You cant accept simple facts like people's opinions differ, or that people have different ways to enjoy themselves making answers like the above seem simply put naive and ignorant. A more guarded or sophisticated person could even consider them malevolent for the game's health even, seems like you (and others) thrive and enjoy more the fact that people hate the labyrinth more than you enjoy playing the game. And that is pure malady.



You perceiving my posts as degrading is not my problem. As i mentioned before my posts are not insulting unless you perceive them to be, in which case they become the reality of things and therefore cannot be insults by definition. (i think the english proverb that fits the case is "whoever smelt it, dealt it" - im not sure though). I believe i talk to adults and thus the tone while harsh and somewhat reprimanding is neither ill-mannered nor insulting. I employ irony and satire quite often but without audacity and malicious intend. IRL i prefer bluntness since it fits better my gravitas and never have to repeat my self cause i interact with adults who understand reason and logic. Not here though, a point needs to be made every day (or even 2 and 3 times per day, for 1.5 month now it is?) for the white knights to grasp the basics not only of the thread's intention, objective and validity but feedback's and conversation's purpose as well.


@Prisus, some of the suggestions i found/remembered









There are pros and cons to every suggestion thats for sure but thats the first step anyway. Ill put the suggestion simplified in the OP later.

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goetzjam wrote:

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jhnsmth wrote:

I remember when we had no checkpoints in this game

checkpoints honestly should have never been added

But they did it :), so we have hope.

GGG might realize how bad the actual lab design on many levels.
(For example, in lab run it helps, if you remove some good +life gear :))

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jhnsmth wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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jhnsmth wrote:

I remember when we had no checkpoints in this game

checkpoints honestly should have never been added

But they did it :), so we have hope.

GGG might realize how bad the actual lab design on many levels.
(For example, in lab run it helps, if you remove some good +life gear :))

Lol people like you don't know how the traps work. Hint the only way its worth removing + life gear is if you have a ton of flat regen, aka from earth golem and gear, otherwise traps do % based HP damage and it doesn't matter if you have 1k or 10k they will do the same portion of your HP pool, so the reason to reduce your life would be to increase your proportionate life regen\second compared to your life pool, but in most cases its better simply to play your build as you are more used to and play better around the traps.

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Your reaction and answers (in previous posts too) implies that everyone should be running like a brainless chicken aka follow the rest of the sheeps and their speedruns disergarding his own playstyle. Its also based on the fact that in order to do lab runs in less that 10minutes one must be familiar with it, and how can one be familiar with it when he is not doing it daily but only 2 or three times on his one character? And to take that a step further, how can one make even a second run when he cant enjoy a thing of that playstyle? How can one make even one run when he cant focus ? How can one make even the trials when he is sick and tired of that playstyle? Cause he played that game everyday for 2 years 20years ago when he was 15 and was playing frogger and later on, prince of persia and contra

Lets see dude, if you don't like doing the lab, obviously why would you spend anymore time then necessary to do it? If I hate taking out the trash or doing dishes, do you think I just lolly gag around and spend more time doing it?

As far as speed runs, doing the lab in 10 min or under doesn't just automatically insinuate speed run, it insinuates promptness and focus. If your playstyle is to explore every aspect of the zone you are in, obviously the lab is going to take WAY to long. But do people honestly explore every single aspect of every single zone when leveling up?


This isn't frogger, prince of persia ect. The traps and the lab isn't going anywhere, you can get that idea of of your head.

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Is it not true that there are three general reasons to run lab?

1. Ascendancy points
2. Racing
3. Enchants

Here we are discussing running labyrinth for the ascendancy points. When Racing or going for enchants the run is going to be different in that people will be going through once unpracticed and not rushing as much. Is a different ladder better for trying to get average times for an ascendancy points run?

EDIT: Actually looking at Perandus Normal, it is about the same. About half of the times are over 30 minutes.

There is 3 reasons in merciless and 2 reasons in normal\cruel. You don't run normal\cruel for enchantments because they are weaker versions then the ones you get in merciless.

In terms of the ascendancy points, you are ASCENDING when you complete the lab, like it fucking literally doesn't make sense to reward them anywhere else. Racing is just a very minor and very niche focus of the lab, so really you run normal and cruel once per character and merciless more then that if you want.


First off perandus is a SC league, so naturally the players there are going to be "worst" then anywhere else, I would argue that perandus would be worst then even standard in terms of runs, but because standard people dont have to run normal on their previously leveled characters and just have to run it in merciless once the times are skewed.

Normal is also going to be the lab that takes the longest regardless because your characters aren't as developed, less gear, less movement speed, ect.

If the average is 30 min like you are suggesting, then the people over that time need to focus on getting better, if they don't enjoy the lab. They can do this in many ways, look at the daily reddit thread, ask about how to navigate and reduce time, pay for a carry, ect.

The lab is literally no different then people taking longer do level in quest or such, as stated already here many people dont enjoy various aspects of the game, GGG adding one more isn't that big of a deal considering the lab follows the more traditional GGG approach on game design. Its actually one of the few things recently that they have done that isn't a direct appeal to the casual players, maybe thats why I enjoy it so much.

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goetzjam wrote:

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I think a reasonable time frame for people that are not rushing through for enchants or the ladder race is 45 to 60 minutes

Lol, are you freaking kidding me.

I wandered around every single area in Cruel lab the other day looking for secret doors, etc (I found one too so it wasn't a total waste) and I still cleared the whole thing in 35 minutes. That counts (3) optional trap gauntlets, the secret area I found, Argus, and all (3) Izaro fights. My character isn't even fast and that's still all it took. I have no idea what these people are doing in there for an hour.

Still think Ascension is right where it belongs.

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goetzjam wrote:

Lol people like you don't know how the traps work.

I now very well, just find it ironic: the easy mode is to NOT use
(otherwise very good) +life gear.