SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Begrugingly, and thats never something a developer wants to hear becauseit means they missed their mark with content and systems that the player likes, I am now indifferent to the lab.

Just one change:

Remove trials, completely.. I still maintain that they serve absolutely no purpose. A waste of time. Its just something annoying that I have to go back to previous content to do. I hate it. Everytime I think about the lab, I moan because of the trials. Remove please.

"

sidtherat wrote:

because the 'but there is still hope for major changes with 3.0, because there is still hope there is' argument is dead now what we will have is a bunch of angry and obnoxious posters littering every place they can

dear lab crusade. you've lost. move on

and if you want to know why you have lost few tips:

- you were extremely rude to everyone who happened to not agree with you
- you projected YOUR opinions on other players and stated these opinions as facts
- you were rude
- you spammmmmmed everywhere
- creating alts/resurrecting old accounts just to 'support your case'
- you were - and by the looks of it still are - rude to everyone outside your clique

even if your arguments made sense, were correct or whatever - you managed to annoy and insult pretty much everyone around including devs.

and you have hoped to 'win'?

As I'm sure others have said by now (I take a while to make posts, sometimes thinking overnight and re-writing entire sections when I think of a better way to word things...) you're arguing against a topic based on making attacks on the people making the argument rather than against the argument itself (I'm sure that has a debate-term somewhere)...

There are very rude people on both sides. That doesn't invalidate either side. (there are comments made by devs that could be considered rude, and that doesn't invalidate their opinion either) I would not classify the entirety of posts made by pro-labyrinth change supporters in any way. I take all posts by their individual merit. If all it took to win my argument was posting FOR the opposing side in a rude manner... imagine the state of the forums!

Also, there is no "lose" situation at this point in time (unless a person self-imposed a deadline of 3.0 as their line in the sand that unless they see changes they won't play anymore). The game isn't an offline commercial game that, once released and on store shelves, never changes. There is always the possibility of change.

I've already posted about the nature and value of feedback/suggestions in the big thread/poster list thread, so I won't go into that topic here again (it's in my post history if you missed it). It goes right to the heart of this matter, IMO. (and people like you, bringing up the alt accounts thing, is what prompted Turtledove to start doing "background checks" on each poster added to the big list thread - that seems to annoy so many people to see. Just stop with that argument please - it does nothing to address the issue at hand, it's simply an attack on the people, again.)


So, those who have a problem with the Labyrinth have never been given a sufficient reason to stop asking for changes. Not surprisingly, the lack of change in 3.0 changes nothing for most of them (including me).

Saying "Shut up and go away" isn't going to accomplish anything, and I'm sorry you, and others who say this, feel that it should.

This came to me as I was reading other posts elsethread:

When I take a step back, the Labyrinth seems to me (In My Opinion), to be many bad parts of the game taken to their limits and crammed into a tiny microcosm to cause as much frustration as possible. Honestly, just look at these 4 main areas:
1) Lag/Disconnects: Labyrinth exacerbates this to the limit, causing one to either start the whole labyrinth over in the case of disconnects, or with lag, to possibly die (which makes you either start the whole labyrinth over, or start a whole new character in HC)

The rest of the game makes allowances for these problems - you can build a character that can take a few hits during lag and survive, and disconnects just mean going back into a waypoint or one of six portals into maps. Deaths in SC just mean getting some xp back (the xp lost isn't a big deal with me up to level 80ish, which is as far as I get in most leagues) Setbacks, not start-overs.

2) Speed-meta: The best way to avoid many traps is to use movement skills or quicksilver flasks to just run past them - to ignore them. The Labyrinths are even on timed ladders to encourage this more. I'm not put off by this much, but a lot of people are. Tactics and strategy are becoming less important... things either die as you run through... or...

3) One-shot kills: Izaro and his massive-ranged one-shot. Some traps come close to this. More and more of the game, post-ascendancy, is heading this way, and IMO, it's a design bandaid to counter nearly un-killable leeching characters more than anything. I hate one-shot kills. One-shot kills ties in with the next point:

4) Avoidance gameplay rather than character stats: The whole "bullet-hell" boss style that's becoming more common, where you avoid everything or die quickly, the gameplay focused on avoiding traps rather than fighting monsters... both negating the resistances and stats on gear; your defensive build means practically nothing in these situations, only movement speed matters for survival. This is anti-everything about character building thus-far in PoE, pre-Ascendancy.



Food for thought, if nothing else. It may be what drives some people to their opinions about the Labyrinth in general. It's not always a "git gud" thing that "bad" or "unskilled" players complain about. There are valid points here.

I was gonna post this in another thread, but decided it fit here better. (these 3 posts were meant for 3 different threads, thus their close timing since I just put them all here.)





Two things about the Labyrinth/Ascendancy pro-change vs no-change "crusades" (yeah, if one's a crusade, so is the other):

#1: Silence from devs.
Some "No-changers" say the silence and inaction of the devs proves that they have no intention of changing how players get Ascendancy points, so stop asking. Implying you can infer a response due to no response. Others say they have replied that they're happy with content some people hate, so stop asking.

From this standpoint, pro-changers have their heads in the sand, ignoring this supposedly "clear feedback" from the devs.

The pro-changers say the "silence" and inaction of the devs proves only that they're ignoring valid criticism of their pet project. They have not addressed it in a satisfactory way that would put an end to requests for change, or even show that they acknowledge the concerns aside from how some disregarded people "feel."

So, from this standpoint, GGG is hiding their heads in the sand, hoping the issue will just blow over.


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#2: Challenge or Speedbump?
I see these both put forth as reasons to keep the Ascendancies locked behind the labyrinth.

Some say it has to be a challenge to get these points because they're too powerful to just give away! Evil power creep! Can't just make them rewards for killing challenging bosses, no, it has to be as hard as the *Labyrinth!*

Then you have people saying Labyrinth is *Easy!*, just run through in 5 minutes! It's nothing but a speed bump! What is there to complain about?



Do the people who find it to be a challenge, and DEMAND it to be this challenge, need to "git gud"? Is it so easy that it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes? If it's that easy, is it really a challenge? How is a 5 minute speed bump slowing down the power creep significant enough to warrant keeping for this level of negative feedback and dissatisfaction with the game in general?

Then there's just "buy a carry"... oh yeah, that proves you worthy of Ascending better than killing a boss on your own... yeah.



This all falls flat, IMO.

There are people who are Pro-change who find the Labyrinth laughably easy, but boring and not fun to play (a different game that they're also good at, but shouldn't be a gateway to character growth in the main game that they came to play.)

If nothing else, it should change because it's not fun and it's not an appropriate challenge for all builds that need their ascendancy classes. You will always have people who have difficulty with some parts of a game, but these threads are not all pleas of "please make the game easier for me." That's just the easiest one to pick on and say "no, no change at all is good because these people just want it to be easier."

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Then you have the meta forum based rejection of change based on player feedback saying "If you change everything because players want changes, it will ruin the game!"

This isn't even tied to the Labyrinth discussion at all, it's just a blanket rejection of player-based suggestions. (some fine-tune this argument to only blanket rejections of things that they think will make the game easier.)

I disagree with the basic sentiment being put forth in these assertions.

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I also think the Labyrinth proves nothing about a player's skill in the main game; it's just too different from the core of the game for the rewards it gives. As side content that's fun for getting some loot at the end, some enchantment stuff... sure, totally optional.

So, it comes down to:
I want to see change that would make the game more fun for people who hate this part of the game, because games should be fun, and there are real problems that need addressing for some people. I'd like to see alternatives that leave the Labyrinth "As-Is", so people who like the Labyrinth have nothing reasonable to be mad about in regard to this addition.


My position will not change, regardless of Developer comments. It would be *nice* to hear from the Developers about their viewpoint on the matter in Manifesto-style detail. I'd sincerely want to know what hope there is, or if this really is "Never gonna happen" in the foreseeable future.

The developers are not infallible God-men who know what's best all the time. That seems to be the viewpoint some people put forth in their defense of GGG, even if it's not their real view. Players can be right about stuff too. Sometimes they're both right, and it's just a matter of finding a way to accommodate both viewpoints in the game.


I feel I have so much I'd like to express to a reasonable person to have a civil discussion with somebody who is willing to understand both sides, and is in a position of power to do something about it,... but all you get in forums are other players, and there are few and far between who are really reasonable, and none are capable of bringing anything to the point of resolution. People really like to talk FOR the devs WAY WAY WAY too much.

"

Zaludoz wrote:

#1: Silence from devs.
Some "No-changers" say the silence and inaction of the devs proves that they have no intention of changing how players get Ascendancy points, so stop asking. Implying you can infer a response due to no response. Others say they have replied that they're happy with content some people hate, so stop asking.

From this standpoint, pro-changers have their heads in the sand, ignoring this supposedly "clear feedback" from the devs.

The pro-changers say the "silence" and inaction of the devs proves only that they're ignoring valid criticism of their pet project. They have not addressed it in a satisfactory way that would put an end to requests for change, or even show that they acknowledge the concerns aside from how some disregarded people "feel."

So, from this standpoint, GGG is hiding their heads in the sand, hoping the issue will just blow over.

Did you watch ZagnutD's interview with Chris where he talked about the lab in 3.0.0? It seems pretty clear from the discussion that they are happy with the 4 lab system, and the changes that 3.0.0 requires are just to facilitate the continuation of the current lab system as it stands (trials, 3 labs while leveling, one in end-game). I wouldn't call that "silence".

"

Docbp87 wrote:

"

Zaludoz wrote:

#1: Silence from devs.
Some "No-changers" say the silence and inaction of the devs proves that they have no intention of changing how players get Ascendancy points, so stop asking. Implying you can infer a response due to no response. Others say they have replied that they're happy with content some people hate, so stop asking.

From this standpoint, pro-changers have their heads in the sand, ignoring this supposedly "clear feedback" from the devs.

The pro-changers say the "silence" and inaction of the devs proves only that they're ignoring valid criticism of their pet project. They have not addressed it in a satisfactory way that would put an end to requests for change, or even show that they acknowledge the concerns aside from how some disregarded people "feel."

So, from this standpoint, GGG is hiding their heads in the sand, hoping the issue will just blow over.

Did you watch ZagnutD's interview with Chris where he talked about the lab in 3.0.0? It seems pretty clear from the discussion that they are happy with the 4 lab system, and the changes that 3.0.0 requires are just to facilitate the continuation of the current lab system as it stands (trials, 3 labs while leveling, one in end-game). I wouldn't call that "silence".

IF THEY DONT RESPOND TO MY SPECIFIC THREAD, EMAIL OR PM THEY ARE IGNORING ME, HOW AM I SUPPOSE TO KNOW TO WATCH A VIDEO WITH ZIGGYD AND CHRIS TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT UPCOMING CHANGES

O YEAH ITS PLASTERED ON THE FRONT PAGE AND ON REDDIT.....

first - alts and resurrected accounts (many people have several accounts - one active and several 'sleeping' for whatever reason like beta keys or whatnot) are a real case. there were VERY loud anti lab posters that disappeared one day to be replaced by completely new account with an equally loud content. few times over. same with alts - when people forgot to switch account and quoted wrong people and then pretended nothing happened. these cases are real and pathetic at the same time

second -

"

So, those who have a problem with the Labyrinth have never been given a sufficient reason to stop asking for changes. Not surprisingly, the lack of change in 3.0 changes nothing for most of them (including me).

so you - despite being told to go away - will remain pestering everyone about your issue? wasnt being ignored for almost a year enough of a sign that your comments were heard, understood, evaluated and eventually ignored? many of you made SURE that your hate for this piece of the game is heard. SEVERAL times too many times.

if you continue to pester us with your issue despite being told to stop and go away - it is rude. and will accomplish exactly nothing. except for ruining others' time - but it seems you do not mind

third - DCs in the lab. i had one case: clicking like an idiot on the 'doors' between zones. click once - DCs are gone. other than that (except for people playing on sketchy wifi connections) the only imaginable DC reason is logout macro. MANY people use these. MANY people rely on these and substitute their skill with it. MANY people. they are all mad that the lab is the one and only piece of content they cannot cheeze with their one button.

fourth - traps do not ignore defences, running quickly without understanding what one is doing == quick death, not all builds have it easy but treat it as a crap-build filter and you will understand why

fifth - you can buy the kill. but you CANNOT buy the trap guidance. this is the ONLY thing in the game one has to do himself.

sixth -

"

I also think the Labyrinth proves nothing about a player's skill in the main game; it's just too different from the core of the game for the rewards it gives. As side content that's fun for getting some loot at the end, some enchantment stuff... sure, totally optional.

yeah right. lab teaches people several things:
- movement skills and how to use them (most of the endgame is about movement skills)
- defences. because you know.. uber izaro is not one shotting my characters. people that have this issue have a l2p issue
- spatial awareness. by your lvl81 character i guess that you havent fought lvl6 essences in a corrupted pack. you better bring some of this no-skill lab skills with you if you want to defeat these. they are no jokes and movement and spatial awareness are key to beat them
- flask management. flask (not life flasks, these are for the novice lab runners) usage alone determines how easy/difficult the run is

and please 5 minute run is a very good result not that many can achieve. this is the skill you do not want to see in it. do you ever completed uber lab by any chance? your visible characters - highest being 81 - are not ascended at all.
but anyone with a remotely good character (that is - with some defences) and good flasks will do the lab in 15-20 mins tops if he wants it (instead of spending days writting angry essays)

seventh - this is golden

"

#1: Silence from devs.
Some "No-changers" say the silence and inaction of the devs proves that they have no intention of changing how players get Ascendancy points, so stop asking. Implying you can infer a response due to no response. Others say they have replied that they're happy with content some people hate, so stop asking.

From this standpoint, pro-changers have their heads in the sand, ignoring this supposedly "clear feedback" from the devs.

The pro-changers say the "silence" and inaction of the devs proves only that they're ignoring valid criticism of their pet project. They have not addressed it in a satisfactory way that would put an end to requests for change, or even show that they acknowledge the concerns aside from how some disregarded people "feel."

So, from this standpoint, GGG is hiding their heads in the sand, hoping the issue will just blow over.

there is no silence. they replied to early feedback, fixed hybrid builds damage and some minor stuff and left it be for several patches in the row.

chris interviewed by streamers told you that they do not care you not liking the content.

if you call it silence then you simply do not accept the answer given to you. they have listened, weighted the options, and they ignored you and your issue.

they were right - you are still playing so the issue is not that big. some guys left, some guys stayed because they were getting bored with right-click-slay-the-screen gameplay.

if you cannot stand doing lab 4 times that takes 40-60 minutes tops but decide to waste days of your life pestering the forums about it.. cool. nobody cares


and i do not think they have to hide from you or other lab-haters. they do not care. their game is getting stronger (using tricks that im not a big fan of - like giving power for free to anyone who asks) despite you or someone else not liking the lab

they do not consider you or your colleagues in the same situation enough to warrant any special response. keeping the lab without any changes for a year should have been a hint enough but it seems that you expect a personal email or something?


and finally - being rude and annoying helped to solve a grand total of 0 issues in the past. why do you expect that this what you and your colleagues are doing had any chance to succeed?

imagine a party you were not invited. yet you show up. you are told to leave. but you ring the bell every 2 minutes. for hours. this is what is happening. just leave and move on.

"

Docbp87 wrote:

Did you watch ZagnutD's interview with Chris where he talked about the lab in 3.0.0? It seems pretty clear from the discussion that they are happy with the 4 lab system, and the changes that 3.0.0 requires are just to facilitate the continuation of the current lab system as it stands (trials, 3 labs while leveling, one in end-game). I wouldn't call that "silence".

Yes, and to me, it was a perfectly reasonable plan to deal with the situation: "If we remove 2 difficulties, how do we transfer the Labyrinth and ascendancy points "as is" into the 1 difficulty we plan to have?"

They had to deal with that issue regardless of any other changes, and from that interview, it didn't sound like that plan is set in stone either; it was the current best solution for that particular problem. It was silence in regard to all the potential alternative ways to ALSO gain ascendancy points. He wasn't addressing that at all.

They haven'd addressed the possibility of their being an alternate way to get Ascendancy points because it seems pretty fucking clear that they have no intention of adding that (and no reason to do so, given that they are happy with the system they have in place currently, as evidenced by the fact that it has not been changed in a year now, over multiple content updates/expansions). Don't tell me that it does need to be addressed because of the 15 dudes still posting in this thread deluding themselves into thinking anything is changing...

Well learning we still have to lab for ascendancy points just killed all my hype for Fall of Oriath. Oh well. Had my fun with this game guess it might be time to really finally part ways with it.