SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

@goetzjam Turtledove's point is that direct control of your player is superior to point-and-click for intricate piloting. I expect the Labyrinth will be considerably more fun to play on Xbone, for the same reason FPSs are considerably more fun to play on PC (imo) than on consoles. You can disagree with that point, because it is an opinion, but I think you would find yourself in a small minority in that case, just like people who prefer console-style FPS controls are in a small minority

Point and click IS direct control at the most extreme levels, you can have far more accuracy on moving your character with keyboard and mouse then you EVER could have with a controller.

As I said, you are necessarily going to hold a minority opinion there (and that's fine; you are allowed to have your own opinion about anything you want). As for relative directness, calling point-and-click control indirect is not a controversial statement. On the contrary it's a commonly accepted concept. This is why:

Mouse
1. Move your pointer to the left of your character.
2. Click.
3. Your character moves left.
4. Move your pointer to the right of your character.
5. Click.
6. Your character moves right.

Joystick
1. Press left.
2. Your character moves left.
3. Press right.
4. Your character moves right.

People refer to the latter as "direct" control because the movements of your character correspond directly to the movements of your controller. People refer to the former as "indirect" because you are kind of telling your character where to go, and then he goes there.

Now for the subjective part: I (and I daresay most people) believe that piloting with the latter method is more precise because the potential for misclicking is nil. Whether or not you have additional leeway for making mistakes before your frog splatters on the pavement is inconsequential to that fact.

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Turtledove wrote:

Gibbousmoon was speaking more generally, bring the intended context up a level. I think that you are missing the forest because of the trees, so to speak. There are lots of games where the only reward is the fun gameplay itself. Compare that to work. Work is generally not something that people want to do for free there needs to be a reward in order to entice people into doing that work. Contrasting the two, he makes a good point, IMHO.

You reversed our quotes. :P

But yes. Classic ARPG gameplay provides both extrinsic and intrinsic rewards. Most of PoE provides both. The Labyrinth provides both only to the extent you enjoy the Labyrinth gameplay per se, which is to say the extrinsic and intrinsic rewards are highly divorced in there (making many people want to finish and get the fuck out asap--even those who like the Labyrinth), whereas the two are a tightly married couple elsewhere in the game.

This is a problem with reward structure and distribution, a problem which should have been anticipated quite early in the design process. Someone dropped the ball. (Sorry, GGG, just saying it like it is.)

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Gibbousmoon was speaking more generally, bring the intended context up a level. I think that you are missing the forest because of the trees, so to speak. There are lots of games where the only reward is the fun gameplay itself. Compare that to work. Work is generally not something that people want to do for free there needs to be a reward in order to entice people into doing that work. Contrasting the two, he makes a good point, IMHO.

You reversed our quotes. :P

But yes. Classic ARPG gameplay provides both extrinsic and intrinsic rewards. Most of PoE provides both. The Labyrinth provides both only to the extent you enjoy the Labyrinth gameplay per se, which is to say the extrinsic and intrinsic rewards are highly divorced in there (making many people want to finish and get the fuck out asap--even those who like the Labyrinth), whereas the two are a tightly married couple elsewhere in the game.

This is a problem with reward structure and distribution, a problem which should have been anticipated quite early in the design process. Someone dropped the ball. (Sorry, GGG, just saying it like it is.)

Sorry about messing up the quotes. I tried to fix it. :-\

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

@goetzjam Turtledove's point is that direct control of your player is superior to point-and-click for intricate piloting. I expect the Labyrinth will be considerably more fun to play on Xbone, for the same reason FPSs are considerably more fun to play on PC (imo) than on consoles. You can disagree with that point, because it is an opinion, but I think you would find yourself in a small minority in that case, just like people who prefer console-style FPS controls are in a small minority

Point and click IS direct control at the most extreme levels, you can have far more accuracy on moving your character with keyboard and mouse then you EVER could have with a controller.

As I said, you are necessarily going to hold a minority opinion there (and that's fine; you are allowed to have your own opinion about anything you want). As for relative directness, calling point-and-click control indirect is not a controversial statement. On the contrary it's a commonly accepted concept. This is why:

Mouse
1. Move your pointer to the left of your character.
2. Click.
3. Your character moves left.
4. Move your pointer to the right of your character.
5. Click.
6. Your character moves right.

Joystick
1. Press left.
2. Your character moves left.
3. Press right.
4. Your character moves right.

People refer to the latter as "direct" control because the movements of your character correspond directly to the movements of your controller. People refer to the former as "indirect" because you are kind of telling your character where to go, and then he goes there.

Now for the subjective part: I (and I daresay most people) believe that piloting with the latter method is more precise because the potential for misclicking is nil. Whether or not you have additional leeway for making mistakes before your frog splatters on the pavement is inconsequential to that fact.

We should race, you with a controller in the lab and me with my keyboard and mouse, same skills, same everything (hopefully we get same layout)


You are completely ignoring some of the most important aspects of player control in this game, which includes the use of movement abilities, flask, ect.


If our test was simply who can play the literal game of frogger better with only joystick and mouse, perhaps your arguement would have merit, but that isn't what we are comparing it to, we are comparing the lab, which is in a game call path of exile that has other factors you are completely ignoring.

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goetzjam wrote:

We should race, you with a controller in the lab and me with my keyboard and mouse, same skills, same everything (hopefully we get same layout)


You are completely ignoring some of the most important aspects of player control in this game, which includes the use of movement abilities, flask, ect.


If our test was simply who can play the literal game of frogger better with only joystick and mouse, perhaps your arguement would have merit, but that isn't what we are comparing it to, we are comparing the lab, which is in a game call path of exile that has other factors you are completely ignoring.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see how well it controls on Xbone.

And yeah, you're right, cheesing past the traps with movement skills might negate the advantage of a direct control scheme, but I think we were talking about precision of movement control, not a way to render that precision irrelevant with lightning warp et al. I.e., a control scheme that people enjoy using more while maneuvering around traps.

(Incidentally, I am positive that there is a 12-year-old boy out there who can kick my ass in any FPS in existence using his 1337 gamepad skills, even if I am using m+k. It ultimately IS a matter of taste, even if the general consensus is that one control scheme is more precise than another.)

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Mouse
1. Move your pointer to the left of your character.
2. Click.
3. Your character moves left.
4. Move your pointer to the right of your character.
5. Click.
6. Your character moves right.

If you are playing like that you are doing it wrong though. Playing top down with a mouse is basically drawing with a pencil. You should try holding the button down maybe it gets easier then.

You essentially control your character without having to even move that far. Because as long as the mouse is as full step to the left the character endlessly moves left, if it is the same place on the right you move right.

I'm actually not sure how a controller is any more direct, because you are actually not moving the controller you are pressing a button, while you do move the mouse. The only more direct form would be a touchscreen. And in difference to what you claim there is no accustomed way of categorizing gamecontrols. It is more based on what people are used to a PC player will have issues getting used to a controller and the same is true the other way around.

As long as you are using a device to input controls I have a hard time seeing any of those means of input as direct.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see how well it controls on Xbone.

And yeah, you're right, cheesing past the traps with movement skills might negate the advantage of a direct control scheme, but I think we were talking about precision of movement control, not a way to render that precision irrelevant with lightning warp et al.

I call the race invalid, your skill levels, reflexes and lab experience might be different too. It would be best if one person did both runs, someone unbiased - like me for instance.

Of course, you'd have to get me an xbox first but that's a minor issue :)

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Emphasy wrote:

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Mouse
1. Move your pointer to the left of your character.
2. Click.
3. Your character moves left.
4. Move your pointer to the right of your character.
5. Click.
6. Your character moves right.

If you are playing like that you are doing it wrong though. Playing top down with a mouse is basically drawing with a pencil. You should try holding the button down maybe it gets easier then.

You essentially control your character without having to even move that far. Because as long as the mouse is as full step to the left the character endlessly moves left, if it is the same place on the right you move right.

I'm actually not sure how a controller is any more direct, because you are actually not moving the controller you are pressing a button, while you do move the mouse. The only more direct form would be a touchscreen. And in difference to what you claim there is no accustomed way of categorizing gamecontrols. It is more based on what people are used to a PC player will have issues getting used to a controller and the same is true the other way around.

As long as you are using a device to input controls I have a hard time seeing any of those means of input as direct.

With a mouse you're telling him where to go, even if you hold down the button and move the cursor back and forth to get near-instantaneous reaction. That is where the concept of indirect control comes from. I did not invent it, trust me.

In any case, I'm not going to get caught up in an argument about label consensus. Those are boring arguments. You believe that no such consensus exists. I believe that such a consensus exists. Both of us have our viewpoint based on things we have already read, which are necessarily different. Which of us has read more on the subject? Who knows? More importantly, who cares?

But it might help you to understand why more people prefer a gamepad for precision piloting if you remember that mouse controls are analog, so if you want to move in a straight direction you need to be extremely precise about not deviating your mouse position. A button is digital; you just press it and go straight.

That said, I suspect that Xbone control will use the analog stick, rendering that particular advantage moot, though perhaps not others--the margin of error for precision movement will still be lower. (And indeed, the game outside of the Labyrinth would probably control like shit if it did not use the analog stick.)

Anyhow, as I said to goetzjam, we shall see. It will be interesting to watch playthroughs on Youtube and hear what people have to say about the relative advantages/disadvantages to direct/indirect control schemes.

@raics I'll buy you one if you buy me one. :P

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Anyhow, as I said to goetzjam, we shall see. It will be interesting to watch playthroughs on Youtube and hear what people have to say about the relative advantages/disadvantages to direct/indirect control schemes.

@raics I'll buy you one if you buy me one. :P

Deal.

I'm kinda curious myself regardless of my feelings about parallel xbox development, it seemed pretty smooth in that gamespot interview but yeah, we'll see.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

We should race, you with a controller in the lab and me with my keyboard and mouse, same skills, same everything (hopefully we get same layout)


You are completely ignoring some of the most important aspects of player control in this game, which includes the use of movement abilities, flask, ect.


If our test was simply who can play the literal game of frogger better with only joystick and mouse, perhaps your arguement would have merit, but that isn't what we are comparing it to, we are comparing the lab, which is in a game call path of exile that has other factors you are completely ignoring.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see how well it controls on Xbone.

And yeah, you're right, cheesing past the traps with movement skills might negate the advantage of a direct control scheme, but I think we were talking about precision of movement control, not a way to render that precision irrelevant with lightning warp et al. I.e., a control scheme that people enjoy using more while maneuvering around traps.

(Incidentally, I am positive that there is a 12-year-old boy out there who can kick my ass in any FPS in existence using his 1337 gamepad skills, even if I am using m+k. It ultimately IS a matter of taste, even if the general consensus is that one control scheme is more precise than another.)

We shall see, because you either don't have a steam controller or don't want to do the test.


We are talking about the lab and how you claimed a controller is better designed for the lab then keyboard and mouse. That is what we are disagreeing with, if you want to apply this to some other irrelevant arguement just for the sake of saying well in this defined scope that isn't relevant to the discussion at hand I'm technically right, quite frankly who cares is you are if it doesn't apply to this.


In terms of FPS, they are different at least back in the day i can recall auto aim style tools that snap to something making precision style controls not as important. But here we are going off topic, in terms of keyboard and mouse vs controller, I will take my keyboard and mouse ANYDAY over a controller for a challenge like the lab. With regular gameplay of this game it shouldn't matter as much.