SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Turtledove wrote:

@gibbousmoon

Nice post, it made me think about my overall RPG experience. I played D&D for many years and always kind of tailored my RPG game play to that thought. Like clearing all maps in PoE. Or when bringing up a new character almost clearing all the monsters as I go through the quests. The idea being that I'm a hero on a crusade to cleanse the world of evil. When I restart the game after a break I'll rush past monsters until I get to about the same spot that I left off when I quit the game then start clearing monsters again. I know that this doesn't maximize my treasure but it is fun for me and when not in the horrible labyrinth, I still get some loot for killing monsters.

I have played other games besides RPG's. Those are fun too. I've even played some Frogger (never liked Mario) but those kind of games are more fun to play with a controller than with bad mouse game play.

Precision character control is "bad mouse gameplay"

There is a reason why people don't typically allow cross play between console and pc. Even if they do its never in a competitive setting because its simply unfair of the control you get with keyboard and mouse over controller.


So I wonder about your frogger complaints here and how stupid of a comparison it is to compare that game to poe traps. Traps are meant to be avoided, you know like face tanking something that does a lot of damage, however unlike your so called comparison traps don't 1 hit ko, so you can't even compare it in that sense, as frogger would obviously be more difficult of a game.


But you know gotta make stupid arguments because you have nothing (as always) legit to bring to the table, keep amassing your list, perhaps your crusade for a more casual poe will come.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

In the Labyrinth (and in some Masters missions still), there is no reason to do this, because those "minimum tasks required" referenced above are both fixed and super-concentrated

But they are reasons to do this, they are not as "super-concentrated" and fixed as you say, not more fixed than the mobs in a map.

Intricate locker are a solution to eventually get a really good unique.
Argus ( sometimes in a completely pointless side room for many builds ) does not always spawn at the same place, and is worth killing for more reward, but you don't have to if you rush for enchantements
Lockers that give an extra keys <- same as killing argus.

And even if some racers just skip all mobs, you cannot know that everybody does it.
A 15~20 mins ubber lab run gives me a good 1% of my experience, just by killing mobs on the way, at level 94, so it does actually give some xp, enough to be noticed at high level, which isn't nothing..

So those things make spending more time than the minimum route ( as you compare it to just killing a map boss ) beneficial, significantly enough to be deemed worth it by many.

The comparison with garbage waste collectors is just plain silly, and I am sure that you know why ( being inside the lab compared with collecting trash .... c'mon, you're better than this :/ right ? )
Plese stop thinking that the majority of players find the lab like not "playing", seriously, this is very very biased.
I have absolutely no troubles believing that many people find the lab somewhat frustrating ( since they know that dying in there wold make them start over, for example, or because of traps that they are not used to ), but saying that every part of it is, is another story.


I agree with the idea of a more randomized lab.
But one would need to be careful, that there would be enough incentive to farm it for enchantments.
Given how random the helmet enchantments are, having the lab taking significantly more time would disturb that "balance" that GGG has put with this system. In other words, they would need to change the enchantements system at least slightly for it to work.

So...is there any info in the press releases about how the Fall of Oriath will affect the lab and ascendancy points?

It's a pretty radical and unexpected change, which gives some cause for hope. But in the few videos I scanned, I didn't see any lab or ascendancy related stuff (unlike the Xbox trailers which did show the lab, but were presumably running the current version of the game), only more environmental interactions with gates, gratings etc. which is great.

Can anyone point to any info, secret messages, tea leaves on this question?

@goetzjam Turtledove's point is that direct control of your player is superior to point-and-click for intricate piloting. I expect the Labyrinth will be considerably more fun to play on Xbone, for the same reason FPSs are considerably more fun to play on PC (imo) than on consoles. You can disagree with that point, because it is an opinion, but I think you would find yourself in a small minority in that case, just like people who prefer console-style FPS controls are in a small minority.

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Fruz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

In the Labyrinth (and in some Masters missions still), there is no reason to do this, because those "minimum tasks required" referenced above are both fixed and super-concentrated

But they are reasons to do this, they are not as "super-concentrated" and fixed as you say, not more fixed than the mobs in a map.

Intricate locker are a solution to eventually get a really good unique.
Argus ( sometimes in a completely pointless side room for many builds ) does not always spawn at the same place, and is worth killing for more reward, but you don't have to if you rush for enchantements
Lockers that give an extra keys <- same as killing argus.

You give examples of piñatas (or keys to a piñata that is available at the end of the run), which do not contradict my point at all. They only illustrate it.

My example of trash collector was not to say that Labyrinth gameplay is equally unfun (though who knows, maybe garbage collecting is more fun than we realize!) but rather to illustrate that we work for an extrinsic reward, and we play for an intrinsic reward. The difference is important. I daresay it is the most important factor to consider when designing reward structures for a video game (any video game, of any genre).

Most players, even fans of this content, agree that the pleasure derived from the Labyrinth is far more concentrated at the piñatas than it is during play. That, by definition, is an extrinsic reward.

The hurdle players have with "The Lab" is the same hurdle Developers have to contend with changing something they've adopted from a point of view that it whittles the herd than embraces the whole.

The last time I was in the lab, was the worse stage of discovering the developers don't know when they're going wrong and leaving it for an even longer period of time right before it's too much "bore" for them and the player, at that exact moment in time.

There's gathering players adopting this stance and there's blinding yourself to the players and yourself.

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degraga wrote:

The hurdle players have with "The Lab" is the same hurdle Developers have to contend with changing something they've adopted from a point of view that it whittles the herd than embraces the whole.

The last time I was in the lab, was the worse stage of discovering the developers don't know when they're going wrong and leaving it for an even longer period of time right before it's too much "bore" for them and the player, at that exact moment in time.

There's gathering players adopting this stance and there's blinding yourself to the players and yourself.

...if I had to guess, I'd say 42.

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ShaUrley wrote:

So...is there any info in the press releases about how the Fall of Oriath will affect the lab and ascendancy points?

It's a pretty radical and unexpected change, which gives some cause for hope. But in the few videos I scanned, I didn't see any lab or ascendancy related stuff (unlike the Xbox trailers which did show the lab, but were presumably running the current version of the game), only more environmental interactions with gates, gratings etc. which is great.

Can anyone point to any info, secret messages, tea leaves on this question?

No, nothing on the matter as of now. Though Chris mentioned lab on some of those interviews he didnt say something related to ascendancy points and what will happen with them in the 10act expansion. He talked a minute or two how lab is hated by some and loved by others and how they went for a more classical approach for Fall of Oriath while still experimenting though in a much smaller degree than the labyrinth and its different design.

What i can get out of this is they know the drastic change to gameplay lab offered while also gating ascendancy points was too controversial and divisive. What strikes me odd is why after so much time he choose to mention lab again, and its even weirder that he did so in their new expansion realease of all places.

Anyway im not at all optimistic regarding our matter, there is a saying in my country which roughly translates to : "where you hear there are lots of cherries you should bring/keep a small basket"

Anyway this goes to GGG : its not that we dont like the content or your work or dont appreciate the effort and time you put for the lab, we are glad you tried new things, kept the game fresh at the time with a very different approach, its just that this was way too drastic of change of pace in the gameplay and what we used to, allienating many in the process who felt left out by one of your best ideas/expansions ever just because you thought it was a fitting idea to gate character progression behind an arcade mini game inside PoE. The implementation was and still is our issue not the content itself. Please make lab optional #SetFreeTheAscendancyPoints #ReworkTheLab #AddAlternativeAscensionMethods

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

In the Labyrinth (and in some Masters missions still), there is no reason to do this, because those "minimum tasks required" referenced above are both fixed and super-concentrated

But they are reasons to do this, they are not as "super-concentrated" and fixed as you say, not more fixed than the mobs in a map.

Intricate locker are a solution to eventually get a really good unique.
Argus ( sometimes in a completely pointless side room for many builds ) does not always spawn at the same place, and is worth killing for more reward, but you don't have to if you rush for enchantements
Lockers that give an extra keys <- same as killing argus.

You give examples of piñatas (or keys to a piñata that is available at the end of the run), which do not contradict my point at all. They only illustrate it.

My example of trash collector was not to say that Labyrinth gameplay is equally unfun (though who knows, maybe garbage collecting is more fun than we realize!) but rather to illustrate that we work for an extrinsic reward, and we play for an intrinsic reward. The difference is important. I daresay it is the most important factor to consider when designing reward structures for a video game (any video game, of any genre).

Most players, even fans of this content, agree that the pleasure derived from the Labyrinth is far more concentrated at the piñatas than it is during play. That, by definition, is an extrinsic reward.

Do you actually believe that this isn't a completely moot point ? Like seriously ?

Give me one example of an area that people would do again and over and over if there was literally 0 reward in it ?
Can you ?
I guess not, for a very good reason : people want reward for their invested play time, period.

How those rewards are split could be a good point, but I just showed you that all the part of the lab can be involved in getting significant rewards already.

From the very moment that grinding is involved, everything people do is for the extrinsic rewards.
Your point would have made some sense if there was nothing but Izaro to reward the player ( significantly enough ), but it is not the case.

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Fruz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

But they are reasons to do this, they are not as "super-concentrated" and fixed as you say, not more fixed than the mobs in a map.

Intricate locker are a solution to eventually get a really good unique.
Argus ( sometimes in a completely pointless side room for many builds ) does not always spawn at the same place, and is worth killing for more reward, but you don't have to if you rush for enchantements
Lockers that give an extra keys <- same as killing argus.

You give examples of piñatas (or keys to a piñata that is available at the end of the run), which do not contradict my point at all. They only illustrate it.

My example of trash collector was not to say that Labyrinth gameplay is equally unfun (though who knows, maybe garbage collecting is more fun than we realize!) but rather to illustrate that we work for an extrinsic reward, and we play for an intrinsic reward. The difference is important. I daresay it is the most important factor to consider when designing reward structures for a video game (any video game, of any genre).

Most players, even fans of this content, agree that the pleasure derived from the Labyrinth is far more concentrated at the piñatas than it is during play. That, by definition, is an extrinsic reward.

Do you actually believe that this isn't a completely moot point ? Like seriously ?

Give me one example of an area that people would do again and over and over if there was literally 0 reward in it ?
Can you ?
I guess not, for a very good reason : people want reward for their invested play time, period.

How those rewards are split could be a good point, but I just showed you that all the part of the lab can be involved in getting significant rewards already.

From the very moment that grinding is involved, everything people do is for the extrinsic rewards.
Your point would have made some sense if there was nothing but Izaro to reward the player ( significantly enough ), but it is not the case.

Based on everything you said, I think you are not grasping my point at all, since you talk about things completely unrelated to it and don't even address it. ("0 reward?" What?)

I'm sorry, Fruz. I don't know how to make it any clearer. I think if I re-explain it any more times the other people following this thread will get really annoyed and really bored--simultaneously.

If something specific about it is unclear, feel free to say so, and I will try to clarify it.

Perhaps the problem is that you think that ARPG players grind exclusively for extrinsic rewards, and not at all for intrinsic rewards? That suggests that every single PoE player in existence is playing this game as if it were a job, and not because they enjoy it. You realize that is a demonstrably false claim, right?

I'm at a loss as how to make this distinction clearer to you. If you are genuinely curious to understand it, and not merely looking to argue, reading this will probably put you on the right path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system

I expect some changes in 3.0, at the very least I assume we will do trials only the first time we visit the first three acts. Which is something at least, that's one part of the lab experience I won't miss, I'm currently fine with doing it once in Normal but Cruel and Merciless is overdoing it.