SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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aDuke wrote:

Uhmmm... where in- or outside the game can you get an impression of the game population ?

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gibbousmoon wrote:

That said, I don't think it is a crime to deviate from conventional pseudo-isometric ARPG gameplay (that should be sufficiently qualified to satisfy Fruz), assuming that the new gameplay is done well; that is to say it does not aggravate already existing weaknesses in the game (such as those connected to netcode or control scheme), it synergizes well with existing content and gameplay, and--most importantly--it is fun.

I posit that the Labyrinth has failed all three of the above conditions.

But a pragmatic response to this (even by a lab fan) would be to examine the population which does not find the Labyrinth fun, and then figure out why they find it unfun, and to do so without (to use Fruz's favorite term) "bad faith." (Assuming that all players criticizing the Labyrinth are looking for free handouts or do not like it because it is too difficult and they want an "easy mode" is one such example of "bad faith.")

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Action role-playing games (abbreviated action RPG, action/RPG, or ARPG) form a loosely defined subgenre of role-playing video games that incorporate elements of action or action-adventure games, emphasizing real-time action where the player has direct control over characters, instead of turn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games.[1]

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Zaludoz wrote:

Determining whether or not all ARPGs should/do share the same definition shouldn't be the goal here. What has been expressed by other posters is an observation of what sort of game PoE is to them. Whether traps fit in all or some ARPGs is not entirely relevant to whether or not PoE should have them.

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Jgizle wrote:

People keep saying ascendancy points are mandatory. Thats is a false statement. I leveled a marauder to 88 without doing anything lab related the entire time. By then your build is esentially complete. By 90 your build should be done. No build should ever be based around a level higher than 90.

The content in the game is exactly the same as before ascendancy. Is ascendancy mandatory if you want to beat shaper? Maybe, ill give you guys that. Anything else it is not mandatory at all.

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Fruz wrote:

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Jgizle wrote:

People keep saying ascendancy points are mandatory. Thats is a false statement. I leveled a marauder to 88 without doing anything lab related the entire time. By then your build is esentially complete. By 90 your build should be done. No build should ever be based around a level higher than 90.

The content in the game is exactly the same as before ascendancy. Is ascendancy mandatory if you want to beat shaper? Maybe, ill give you guys that. Anything else it is not mandatory at all.

Come on you know that it's not true anymore.
They augmented the monster's life globally, even Chris said that they were taking the AC points into account when balancing the game now.

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Zaludoz wrote:

This post is more of a "big picture" of why the Labyrinth is an issue for some people (it may rehash a few overlapping concepts with previous posts, so sorry in advance). In some ways, I wish I didn't have to spell it out for some people, but the level of unwillingness to try to see the points behind some less-than-elaborated feedback is disheartening.


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"ARPG" traps
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Determining whether or not all ARPGs should/do share the same definition shouldn't be the goal here. What has been expressed by other posters is an observation of what sort of game PoE is to them. Whether traps fit in all or some ARPGs is not entirely relevant to whether or not PoE should have them.

This discussion is inclusive to PoE. Since the devs of this game think traps do fit into their vision of PoE: To what extent should traps exist in this game? and How should they interact with the already-established mechanics of the game? (it was stated by Chris in some interview or manifesto that I read, that he always wanted to have traps from the start, but without lock-step, knowing exactly where a player was standing, couldn't include them. They are making the game they want to play, so this game will include traps.)

In other words, traps are here to stay as part of PoE. It's just how they work and interact with the way PoE plays, that can be discussed.
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Traps were successfully designed to drastically alter gameplay in Path of Exile. Let's examine what the core gameplay is like, and then see what it's like in the labyrinth. How do traps interact with the previously established gameplay and mechanics?



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PoE Gameplay (outside/pre- labyrinth)
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As others have stated, the core gameplay of Path of Exile is "kill monster, get experience and loot", that's what "playing the game" has entailed from the start. It is the activity that draws most people to play. You also get experience with which you build a passive tree with stats that allow you to go kill stronger monsters, get more experience, and more loot. The loot is gear that makes your character stronger and more defensive, so you can kill stronger monsters and withstand their attacks, so you can get their loot.

This is not to say it's simplistic either. There are many ways to kill monsters and defend yourself. The combining of these things is what adds depth, and this moves into a different area, the mechanics of the game.

Then there are quests in the story that require interaction with NPCs to initiate and then complete objectives (usually kill monster get its quest loot, or just find object/interact with object). That's the game boiled down to its basics. I'd say deviating from this gameplay formula is what causes a lot of uproar, in a broad sense, whenever you look at additions/changes to the game.
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Labyrinth Gameplay
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There are 2 methods of gameplay in the Labyrinth that I've observed:
The first version of Labyrinth gameplay is: move slowly through the labyrinth, stop, spot traps, avoid getting hit by traps by timing your movements and finding safe spots to stand, and proceed safely through. Use movement skills to bypass traps if possible. Monsters are primarily there to refill flasks, rather than being the core gameplay of killing them for loot (with the exceptions of the lava floor traps with monster generators, where the monsters are part of the trap to keep you from progressing quickly to safe spots (they also refill your flasks to keep you alive) - it's still the trap that kills you there, and the push-cart traps with swarms of monsters attacking you which sounds like a moving variation of an Elreon mission.)

The second version of Labyrinth gameplay...I am unsure of... if the super-speed ignore-traps gameplay that has emerged from the labyrinth completion-time-ladders was intended gameplay for the Labyrinth or not.

Only the boss encounters (Argus/Izaro) are built on the same gameplay found in the rest of the game.
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Spoiler

This is more of a side-note in this discussion, brought up recently in this thread, that if the Labyrinth isn't PoE "kill monster, get experience/loot" gameplay, then neither are the masters... to which I present:

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Masters gameplay
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A perfect example to bring up regarding new content and its added gameplay: Forsaken Masters.
Are these gameplay elements in keeping with what people expect from Path of Exile?

Let's take a look.

* Elreon: Kill waves of monsters and/or monsters and shrine thingies and get loot.

* Tora: Kill monsters around the map or in a den, and get loot.

* Vagan: Kill vagan (and get loot), vagan and his minions (and get loot), or training dummies.

* Catarina: Kill certain monsters (and escort NPCs to certain locations) (people don't seem to like these, so they've sped up the movement speed of the NPCs, also they've added loot to the killed monsters finally)

* Zana: Find object or Find and kill enemies (and get loot) Most people are just happy to get a free map to kill more monsters and get more loot and experience.

* Haku: Kill enemies, usually with a time limit to get in, grab the spirit, and get out (so you pass up most of the potential loot). (notice: the biggest problem I recall was most people saying how unfair the rockfalling-style environmental hazard was, since it seemed to bypass most defenses people built into their characters, though higher HP helped? I rarely do Haku missions unless I just leveled up, so this is remembering from way back at the introduction) Still my least favorite master missions, even trumping:

* Vorici: Kill a certain monster and get potential loot (even on failure, if you kill an exile instead of letting them live for the objective, that was a loot pinata) (notice the objectives requiring one to not kill monsters are disliked, mainly because it goes against the entire design of most characters that work most efficiently in the game. You needed to build a single-target, very weak, skill into your setup to handle that one-off situation (either kill single target, or keep target alive/at low life), similar to labyrinth, building around, or struggling to work around their inclusive rule-sets divergent from the rest of the game. Where else in the game is it beneficial to NOT kill all the monsters around you as fast as possible? Reflect packs?) The one master that you'd think would want you to kill targets (the assassin), primarily wants you to leave targets alive on a lot of his missions... yeah. Probably the easiest to fail master because the game isn't built this way, the gameplay doesn't match.

* Leo: PvP objectives. (kill players with certain classes, and avoid being killed by players) Notice how few people play PvP in PoE? It's not the gameplay that drew most people here. (a discussion for another topic that I don't care to take part in, as long as PvP never dictates changes in PvE)

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Do you find yourself saying "I like all of those differences in gameplay, especially Vorici, and even the labyrinth. It spices up the game!" As long as it's entirely optional and just to spice up the gameplay, I'm good with it too. More fun for everyone. Problem is, they've gone and put Ascedancy Classes behind the labyrinth gameplay, and those are not optional to character progression.

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Besides the gameplay, though, are the differences in the game mechanics that you build your character around.


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PoE "Mechanics"
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The more Life, Energy Shield, Armor, Evasion, Block, Resistances, etc, you have, the better. You build your passive tree toward these defenses. You strive to get the best gear with these defenses. You can also choose to create a "Glass Cannon", and though you'll probably lose plenty of xp in higher levels, you can still have fun with nearly any build.

Spoiler

Boss fights are now best fought with AoE attacks because of the addition of minions to nearly all encounters probably due to flask mechanics, rather than very strong single-target attacks to focus on killing the boss.

Over time, there has been a dis-tasteful movement toward many one-shot-kill attacks that you have to avoid, rather than tank, to counter both alt-f4 tactics (they want to kill players before they can log out), and the nigh-invulnerability of some over-powered combinations of certain builds. (they've said they balance boss encounters around alt-f4, so the bosses can be more dangerous - to which I am boggled, but that's not this discussion.)

There are now many many many more things to avoid in certain boss fights, making them more comparable to space shooters, than ARPGs (the hydra guardian), but whatever, now you have to dart around the screen to avoid damage while you plink away at their HP from a safe distance, in addition to building defenses against the smaller hits (because that's all you can defend against).

I do not think this is a smart move, as it moves farther and farther away from the core gameplay experience, and more toward movement speed for damage avoidance gameplay - taking much of the RP out of the ARPG).

Waypoints save your progress. If you get disconnected, your game crashes, the server instance crashes, or you have to return to town with a town portal to sell a full inventory or trade with someone, you can pick up where you left off with minimal/no backtracking.
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Labyrinth "Mechanics"
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The Labyrinth deviates from the normal rules of the game on many important levels. It seems to me that they designed the traps intentionally to be equally deadly to everyone, regardless of level, gear, passives... well, everything except regen (maybe energy shield recharge starting speed) and movement speed.

So, forget your passive tree, forget all that armor you're wearing, forget the defenses you've been tuning to perfection to fight monsters. That's all gone in there. Might as well be wearing nothing except movement speed boots and a belt with flasks.

Also, since the traps do percent damage, it helps to have low max life, so your flasks can refill you to max faster or with less uses (unless you're going to be a regen-tank that can just stand on traps and regen faster than you bleed). Forget about leech-based recovery; that's useless in trap gauntlets without enemies around.

Using the speed-run method is probably closest to the current gameplay most enjoy: ignore the traps, restore life with flasks and get out as fast as possible. Maybe this actually was the intended gameplay for the labyrinth after all!

If you get disconnected, crash, the game server instance crashes, or you leave via town portal, it resets the labyrinth, and you start over from the beginning.

Oh yeah, the boss fights are pretty much right in line with the rest of the game, so there's that.
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Conclusion
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They've said time and again, that they're making the game that they want to play. Well, now they've made two games, based the above evaluation, with two styles of gameplay, and two sets of rules. I personally have no problem with their two-games-in-one, but they shouldn't require playing one to make progress ("progress" has been discussed in a previous post) in the other.

Not everything about the Labyrinth is bad. If it was not required to obtain Ascendancy Classes, I could see going in once in a while to attempt to get the treasures at the end, on a character built for it, that follows the labyrinth rules.


I'd personally make the labyrinth itself optional for the ascendancy classes, instead of "watering down" the content and forcing people to play through that anyway. They could keep the labyrinth as optional content for people to take a break from the main game (while retaining all of its current rewards),(some people might say don't waste your dev time on mini-games like this, when the main game needs attention, but not me)

The addition of an alternate method of ascending that uses the non-labyrinth gameplay would be instituted (I'd chose the one-map, three-room, three-phase Izaro fight that grants only ascendancy, and no other drops/rewards, reserving those for the trap-filled labyrinth).

This way, the "vocal minority" of lab haters never have to enter that mini-game. The "silent minority" of lab lovers can run the labyrinth every day to place on the ladders. The rest of the community can run it for ascendancy on some characters, or choose the alternate route on others, choosing the gameplay they enjoy more, or choose whichever path suits their build better.


If traps make it outside the labyrinth in any significant measure (they're already in at least two maps), they have to start following the rules by which the rest of the game plays or there will always be outcry against them.


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P.S.:
If I have captured the reasoning behind some people's dissatisfaction with the Labyrinth, I hope this helps them articulate their position in a more constructive manner that can lead to GGG taking action. I know in a feedback and suggestions forum, people don't need to leave anything more than their feedback stating that they like or dislike something, since they're not game designers, and it's not their job to point out exactly why and their potential solutions, but every little bit helps keep healthy contributions to the topic coming.

P.P.S.:
I probably left out some key points in my head, as this took a while to write, and I bounced around sections as I thought of stuff. I probably kept in too much explanation where I could have trimmed it down too. But instead of proof-reading this thing another dozen times, I just thought I'd get the main ideas into the thread and worry about it later.

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Jgizle wrote:

For a future update. Nothing in poe is currently balanced for AC. ASCENDANCY is pure POWER CREEP.

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Jgizle wrote:

Where has Chris ever said AC is not optional.