SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Reworking lab:
-remove trials
-you run lab (can be even longer) to unlock boss fight
-you can enter Izaro (can be even stronger) any time after unlocking above, via the special orb
(1 drop per run, but if you get more keys for chests then you can find more)
-enable trading in lab! this is one of the biggest flaws of the game atm
-enchants are only in lab, but you can keep your current enchant if you don't like a new one
-ascendancy points are for killing Izaro, but it must be done solo (1 portal like sometimes wild Zana has)

Optional reworking:
-removing tar mobs from the lab
-more trap dmg
-new kind of traps
-potions don't refill unless you enter new area
-more powerful lab-only unique items
-special orb for maps (or Zana mod?), which change map layout into trap area
-lab forsaken master, new HO, missions, craft options (enchant oriented)

"

Shredzilly wrote:

@ Shovelcut

"

Meh, it doesn't matter in the end if the changes to Vorici missions are any sign of the future direction of the game. You'll likely get what you want making the game even more casual while at the same time watering down any of the actual challenge the game has left.

So, you find the Lab challenging ?

Can you give me Details what exactly is challenging for you in the Lab ? The Traps ? Izzaro ? Deadends? That you can´t portal out ? Something else ?

I´m really curious.

If it wasn't challenging when it comes to precision control, what are people bitching about the traps for?

I don't play the meta, so I'm not usually running the movement skills most ppl do. I also typically run the laby in each difficulty when I reach the act 4 skill reward quest, under geared, under powered and I don't focus on debuffing him. It does make the laby somewhat of a challenge. Especially given you only get one try per run.

Izaro and the deadends are a non-issue.

@Gibbousmoon: I'm saying that they are optional when you get them in direct response to the statement that they gate the core game. Which is 100% factual. Perhaps don't take the quote out of context.

"

Shovelcut wrote:

I'm saying that they are optional when you get them in direct response to the statement that they gate the core game. Which is 100% factual. Perhaps don't take the quote out of context.

They do gate core character development.

In any context.

Since ASC we just plain refer to the characters and builds in terms of the ASC, and only in very rare occasions to the general class.

Your argument is shit, no one is taking anything out of context.

"

Shovelcut wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

At least with a controller you have more reasonable control of where the character is going.

If that's your issue, it really is a l2p issue on your part. Controls are just fine how they are. I can honestly say that because of the laby my control over my character has improved to a point that is felt well beyond the laby and I'm now able to do content I wasn't able to do before. I wish you guys could see the value in that and find it for yourselves.

But seeing as it's been over 7 months now... Deaf ears, tunnel vision and all that...

Meh, it doesn't matter in the end if the changes to Vorici missions are any sign of the future direction of the game. You'll likely get what you want making the game even more casual while at the same time watering down any of the actual challenge the game has left.

I am really pleased that you feel the labyrinth has improved your game play. From my point of view though it would be like eating shit to make me like eating steak even more. I don't want to eat shit.

Getting back to my statement, you seem to miss the logic. The part you snipped said the trap game play was crap. The bad controls (compared to controllers) made it horrible crap. Therefore the best it could ever be is crap trap game play.

"

Shovelcut wrote:

@Gibbousmoon: I'm saying that they are optional when you get them in direct response to the statement that they gate the core game. Which is 100% factual. Perhaps don't take the quote out of context.

You have tried to limit the phrase "core game progression" to just story quests up to Malachi, and treat maps onward as outside the core game (insomuch as I have seen here).

My assertion was that the core game, to some people, IS character progression.

The story is finished one time through on normal. The rest is a difficulty slider on all content and then randomized after a (currently) 3rd playthrough. But that's all core gameplay.



The reason I consider the Labyrinth to be a tacked on mini-game, is for several reasons:
* the objective is to move in such a way as to avoid traps. Monsters are an afterthought mainly for refilling flasks. Only Argus and Izaro feel like core PoE gameplay encounters.

* it ignores or invalidates many aspects of a character that work just fine for survivability and enjoyability outside of the labyrinth. (this has been elaborated elsewhere, and I've heard the rebuttals, not interested in going through it again only to agree to disagree)

* its control scheme is not optimal for precise character movement (a controller is far superior for things like these) I disagree that mouse and keyboard is more precise for me at least, and others have voiced the same.

* the interface being a top-down, limited range of vision (zooming out would be nice, but then precision of control would get even worse, so there's not much hope for improvement there), and for some quite dark, or some traps for some are indistinct and hard to discern compared to the background (not a problem I've encountered, but I have a laptop, and by adjusting the screen angle, I can make even otherwise pitch black areas much lighter).

Added together, the above points create a "mess" of a mini-game that is quite different from the rest of the game. Proving one is able to complete the labyrinth has no bearing on whether they're good at the rest of the game. It does not even create a way to judge builds as good or bad based on one person's ability to take one of their builds successfully through the labyrinth but not another of their builds (where outside the labyrinth, both do just fine)

It is a self-contained challenge in the game. You can build your character around it to make it super easy, or you can struggle to bypass its constraints just for the (gated) ascendancy points and hate every moment, just to enjoy the rest of your character's progression outside of the labyrinth, where the actual game takes place.

"

Gosen wrote:

Reworking lab:
-remove trials
-you run lab (can be even longer) to unlock boss fight
-you can enter Izaro (can be even stronger) any time after unlocking above, via the special orb
(1 drop per run, but if you get more keys for chests then you can find more)
-enable trading in lab! this is one of the biggest flaws of the game atm
-enchants are only in lab, but you can keep your current enchant if you don't like a new one
-ascendancy points are for killing Izaro, but it must be done solo (1 portal like sometimes wild Zana has)

Optional reworking:
-removing tar mobs from the lab
-more trap dmg
-new kind of traps
-potions don't refill unless you enter new area
-more powerful lab-only unique items
-special orb for maps (or Zana mod?), which change map layout into trap area
-lab forsaken master, new HO, missions, craft options (enchant oriented)

1) Trials are there to introduce people to lab mechanics that are "new"
2) What do you mean?
3) Trading, while important should not be the #1 thing you as a player should be concerned about. One of the biggest flaws in this game is that people think trading should do nothing but get easier and easier.
4) I dont mind this one, it does somewhat cheapen the system a bit, but probably not that big of a deal.
5) Why, no content in this game must be done solo to reap the rewards.


6) Really tar mobs that big of a deal considering almost everyone uses movement skills.
7) Traps already hurt they don't need to do more damage.
8) Potions should not have special rules in the lab.
9) Def not needed, the lab already has a number of niche uniques that are worth running for it alone

"

Shovelcut wrote:

"

Shredzilly wrote:

So, you find the Lab challenging ?

Can you give me Details what exactly is challenging for you in the Lab ? The Traps ? Izzaro ? Deadends? That you can´t portal out ? Something else ?

I´m really curious.

If it wasn't challenging when it comes to precision control, what are people bitching about the traps for?

I don't play the meta, so I'm not usually running the movement skills most ppl do. I also typically run the laby in each difficulty when I reach the act 4 skill reward quest, under geared, under powered and I don't focus on debuffing him. It does make the laby somewhat of a challenge. Especially given you only get one try per run.

Izaro and the deadends are a non-issue.

@Gibbousmoon: I'm saying that they are optional when you get them in direct response to the statement that they gate the core game. Which is 100% factual. Perhaps don't take the quote out of context.

I understand now and stand corrected. Like others, however, I feel that maps are an extremely important part of the game. Therefore, choosing when to tolerate the Labyrinth is not a consolation at all.

(Some might even call it part of the "core game," but let's not get bogged down in a pointless semantic argument. I understand that you are talking about everything up to Malachai and nothing else.)

"

If it wasn't challenging when it comes to precision control, what are people bitching about the traps for?

It should not surprise you, or anyone else, that people playing a game oriented toward action tire quickly of having to stand and wait for things to happen before being able to move or act. That requirement is only true in the Labyrinth and at the very beginning of a few boss encounters.

Traps presented a challenge to me at first, I will admit (though not a fun challenge). They no longer do, unless by "challenge" you mean "challenge to my patience."

I think you can understand this perspective if you try really, really hard. ;)

In any case, it is an extremely common perspective, which is not at all surprising. The better I get at the Labyrinth, the more I hate it. Once the challenge is gone, all that remains is tedium.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

...
The better I get at the Labyrinth, the more I hate it. Once the challenge is gone, all that remains is tedium.

Funny but true! Although I also throw in boring and irritating for good measure.

I ran into this thread today and was quite amazed that one very simple solution for the problem has not been mentioned at all:

Configure the labygenerator in a way that it provides an alternate path through the laby without traps, but some tough monsters instead.
Like in "kill Argus OR run through the traps".

That would be a minimal change and keep both laby-lovers and -haters happy.

"

aDuke wrote:

I ran into this thread today and was quite amazed that one very simple solution for the problem has not been mentioned at all

It has, many times actually.

Touch monsters can be overleveled. so no.
A path that takes much more time, and is more tedious but without traps ( maybe with many puzzles ), why not I guess.
But it would be worse for those who complain about the length of the lab.

And it would require dev time, I would rather have them work or something (more) useful for the game.