SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

I agree that ascend points should be gated behind something less controversial to the PoE gameplay than the Labyrinth.


What I don't agree with is calling some guys "white knights", especially those that are just trying to enforce their playstyle on some part of the community, waving the "git gud" mentality like it's some kind of thing to be proud of.

Those guys ain't white knights, they're "our way or the highway" dogmatic zealots. I can't even begin to understand how this kind of mentality has a place in a feedback & suggestions forum, where the basis is to talk about - guess what - doing stuff differently and changing the game with an open mind.

So no, guys, those ain't white knights from where I stand. What I see is on one side some people trying to provide alternatives so everyone gets their share of the fun the way they're used to, and on the other end some people that just try to enforce the statu quo, not even taking the time to assess it'd in no way affect their own playstyle.

It's a silly situation, considering the Labyrinth isn't hard content. People that don't like it won't have to get better to beat it. It's not balancing in any way the power of the ascendencies. Everyone can do it, everyone will do it.

It's frustrating, yeah. It's tedious to some, of course, but hard it is not, and it won't deter anyone from doing it only 3 times for the ascendencies, even if it takes outleveling it, being carried or just resorting to any cheap tricks to make the experience faster, and thus more bearable.

At best, it won't separate the good from the bad players, it will - in the player population that dislike the lab - separate the guys that can bear the tedium and the frustration from those that can't, leaving these to just quit playing because they feel they haven't been heard - which is just bad for the game.


Also please, don't come raving with sophisms like "hey, if we make ascendencies easier to obtain we should make gear easier to obtain too !". As far as I know, passive skill points aren't obtained through the RNG, and the lab is all but part of the core gameplay which has made PoE a success, and that players are expecting when they log in - on the contrary to RNG, farm, and gear disparity.


But hey, who am I kidding, those dogmatic zealots won't change their mind anyway. Humans with more conviction than reason will never be "white knights", they're what the angry mobs are made of.

Here are my positions on the issue.

No, Ascendancy points shouldn't be moved. Want the reward? Complete the quest. Seriously, I consider "move +2 passive skill points reward off Piety" to be an equally absurd request.

HOWEVER

1. GGG needs to fix Lab stability issues.
2. GGG needs to fix Lab stability issues. [/tylerdurden]
3. Doing Trials three times between character creation and (top tier) maps is two too many times. The way it should be is you do two Trials in Normal and deal with two types of traps in Normal Lab, then two different Trials in Cruel and four trap types in Cruel Lab. Finally, the last two Trials in Merciless, and all six Trap types in Merciless Lab.
4. Merciless Izaro should be a difficult, overlevel-doing-maps-then-come-back-when-stronk type of challenge (kinda like Merciless Daresso/Kaom), to make those fifth and sixth Ascendancy points savory through difficulty... but Normal and Cruel Izaro have no business being quite as hard as they are. Absolutely no one competent should have any issues doing Normal Izaro right after Normal A3 Piety, and Cruel Dominus should be a good "test battle" to see if ready for Cruel Izaro. In short, nerf Normal/Cruel Izaro, leave Merciless Izaro as-is. (My point #3 also makes the pre-Izaro part of Normal and Cruel Lab easier.)

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kogaratsu wrote:

It's a silly situation, considering the Labyrinth isn't hard content. People that don't like it won't have to get better to beat it. It's not balancing in any way the power of the ascendencies. Everyone can do it, everyone will do it.

Actually, there is people that find the whole thing hard. Not all the situations are the same.

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kogaratsu wrote:

At best, it won't separate the good from the bad players, it will - in the player population that dislike the lab - separate the guys that can bear the tedium and the frustration from those that can't, leaving these to just quit playing because they feel they haven't been heard - which is just bad for the game.

Trickier situation that it seems. Have you read any "I hate leveling"/"I hate Act IV bosses"/"I hate master leveling" posts? Almost everyone has something that they'd rather remove from the game because they find it frustrating or boring, the question is, how do you draw the line?

This days I have read people defending linear corridor shooters (like Call of Duty), people saying that Vaal Oversoul takes too much time to appear when they are in Act II, wanting a extra ladder in Lioneye's Watch to save five seconds they can't bear, or hating dark areas...and I wonder how much attention we should pay to that kind of mentality.

I get it, the labyrinth is divisive, but I don't like the consequences of the "I want to kill stuff for loot, fuck the rest (except maybe doing some builds)" mentality. I can't stomach how someone would dislike so much some enviromental hazards, but that's what is happening. Reading some explanations has confused me a lot more. I didn't know people hated classic games like Prince of Persia/Mario so much, it was an eye opener.

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NeroNoah wrote:

I didn't know people hated classic games like Prince of Persia/Mario so much, it was an eye opener.

These are new gamers, young and unwilling to do anything or feel like they shouldn't have to do anything they don't want.


Which is why a game like D3 has a loot fest power creepin (beyond all reasonable amount) shitfest of a game.

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goetzjam wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

I didn't know people hated classic games like Prince of Persia/Mario so much, it was an eye opener.

These are new gamers, young and unwilling to do anything or feel like they shouldn't have to do anything they don't want.


Which is why a game like D3 has a loot fest power creepin (beyond all reasonable amount) shitfest of a game.

I am one of those people that hate Prince of Persia/Mario so much. I doubt that you would consider me young though? I've been gaming since Pong and text adventure games were the cutting edge. LOL, I'm 64. Yes, I do feel that I shouldn't have to play the boring labyrinth if I don't want to. That's why I'm playing XCOM2 now. :-)

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Turtledove wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

I didn't know people hated classic games like Prince of Persia/Mario so much, it was an eye opener.

These are new gamers, young and unwilling to do anything or feel like they shouldn't have to do anything they don't want.


Which is why a game like D3 has a loot fest power creepin (beyond all reasonable amount) shitfest of a game.

I am one of those people that hate Prince of Persia/Mario so much. I doubt that you would consider me young though? I've been gaming since Pong and text adventure games were the cutting edge. LOL, I'm 64. Yes, I do feel that I shouldn't have to play the boring labyrinth if I don't want to. That's why I'm playing XCOM2 now. :-)

64, you've reached the other side, where you've "been there, done that" enough times.

In terms of not having to do what you dont want, many people hate not having access to the better level 28 gems earlier, many people hate grinding masters, this is just a new found "hate" or dislike, not like they are going to move them from the lab anyway. Like OP is so butthurt about it hes put himself on probations many times and does nothing but say anyone who likes the lab is a white knight. No perhaps people like different things, thats fine, people hate different things that also is fine.

its not like you have to do it 1000 times to get the points for classes, you do it 3 times per character, more if you switch from one to another, but that isn't a common thing I dont think.

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goetzjam wrote:

64, you've reached the other side, where you've "been there, done that" enough times.

In terms of not having to do what you dont want, many people hate not having access to the better level 28 gems earlier, many people hate grinding masters, this is just a new found "hate" or dislike, not like they are going to move them from the lab anyway. Like OP is so butthurt about it hes put himself on probations many times and does nothing but say anyone who likes the lab is a white knight. No perhaps people like different things, thats fine, people hate different things that also is fine.

its not like you have to do it 1000 times to get the points for classes, you do it 3 times per character, more if you switch from one to another, but that isn't a common thing I dont think.

From my point of view, there are two significant differences between labyrinth game play and those other items you mention. First, the actual game play between labyrinth and the core PoE game play is significantly different compared to those other things you mention. Second, the percentage of people that dislike labyrinth is much greater.

We shall see.

Found a shavronne's from cadiro and 5linked in 2 fusings. Got excited to play with a low life char since i never played one before and fapped for a whole evening to the skill tree i created. Leveled for a few hours the next day, but then i remembered that i have to do trials + lab x3 and just dropped the idea like a hot potato. Shavronne's is gonna rot in my stash.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Found a shavronne's from cadiro and 5linked in 2 fusings. Got excited to play with a low life char since i never played one before and fapped for a whole evening to the skill tree i created. Leveled for a few hours the next day, but then i remembered that i have to do trials + lab x3 and just dropped the idea like a hot potato. Shavronne's is gonna rot in my stash.

Spoiler

Exactly like i feel.My current char in PHC is lv 95 and i'm kinda bored,really wanted to rerol voltaxic spark but whn i thought i have to to lab another 3 times,i just gave up.Will stick with current char until he dies then leave until new leaugue begins.

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And1111 wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

Found a shavronne's from cadiro and 5linked in 2 fusings. Got excited to play with a low life char since i never played one before and fapped for a whole evening to the skill tree i created. Leveled for a few hours the next day, but then i remembered that i have to do trials + lab x3 and just dropped the idea like a hot potato. Shavronne's is gonna rot in my stash.

Spoiler

Exactly like i feel.My current char in PHC is lv 95 and i'm kinda bored,really wanted to rerol voltaxic spark but whn i thought i have to to lab another 3 times,i just gave up.Will stick with current char until he dies then leave until new leaugue begins.

Pay like 15 chaos for all 3 to have the bosses killed for you and to have someone go the golden keys and hopefully guide you thru it as well.

Its really not the end of the world here people.