SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

Strange. I proposed nearly the same idea earlier in the thread and as a result, was called mentally incompetent by all you lab-lovers.

Anyway, it's good that some of you are at least taking the initiative to evolve past your own noses. Good job. :)

About the trials: They're still goofed, IMO. Use them once in Normal difficulty as a 'tutorial' of sorts for new players, then remove for cruel/merc. They become tedium for the sake of tedium after the first time around.

I got a map trial yesterday. It is horrible shit, as bad as the labyrinth. It was so long, boring, tedious and not fun that I didn't bother finishing it. I seriously doubt that I will ever get the final two ascendancy points. I'm sure that GGG is not getting another dime from me unless they make this horrible game play optional.

Edit: to be clear, I can usually stomach the other trials because they are much shorter. This seemed as long as a full set of traps in the labyrinth. I escaped and quit PoE to get out of it so I'm not sure how long it actually is.

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Regulator wrote:

What this thread tries to achieve is to allow everyone, every single player to have the chance to optimize/customize their character in the most optimal way and with as many option possible, something that this form of gating prevents in contrast to what GGG usually implemented in the past.

To cater to everyone we do not and never have asked for labyrinth to be removed

The title might seem misleading but after reading the opening post every question will be answered with solid and reasonably supported arguments and analysis. Besides my initial request that is completely removing AC from labyrinth, every single suggestion presented there leaves labyrinth untouched with all the rewards it offers now still there.



On a side note, first time since i can remember that after a league/expansion update that there was no "successfull deployment" or "x update was a success" kind of news in the announcements. They still havent released any data regarding the labyrinth from perandus yet, why is that? Around 30% drop (12k players) in player numbers too in steam charts, guess many left. Labyrinth participation numbers spiked since the release but they drop steadily as the time passes too, not a coincidence. What a failure is that labyrinth and they still refuse to adress it. What can i say.

More options don't always = better. More options creates a scenario where both (or multiple) ones need to be balance in consideration of challenge, considering that your goal is for at least one of the rewards to remain the same its CRUCIAL that this gets addressed properly.

"gates"

Just stop using that term. You want to benefit from getting something that requires you to do something else. Everything in this game requires you to do something to benefit. By using the term "gating" your just saying what is already implied and trying to use a term that people throw around like its a massive negative thing, which it isn't in this context or any context of the game. Using that tone of words actually encourages negative remarks and discussion and will not help you achieve your goal.

"to cater to everyone"

This game was never meant to cater to everyone, if they ever decide to cater to everyone they have ultterly failed as a company and a game and the whole game will be worst because of it. I've already said this, so why you keep repeating this "we care about everyone" shit idk, but its really annoying.

Look at it this way. If various people really enjoy this or that about the game, but it gets changed because some people want it another way then the people that really enjoy those aspects of the game won't enjoy it as much and while you might enjoy it slightly more, it isn't nearly as much as the enjoyment that the people lost in the process.

So its always a net NEGATIVE to make adjustments "to cater to everyone" as soon as you learn this and recognize this you will better understand why its important to NOT cater to everyone.

I've also told you that removing AC from the lab is equivalent to removing the lab basically altogether, because it removes the MOST RELEVANT part of the lab. Even if you can still get the AC points from the lab, if you can get them outside the lab, it has very little rewards on its own to be "worthy" of doing it.


Maybe they didn't want to jinx themselves with the whole "successful deployment" stuff again. Not only that the steam number drop is actually expected considering this is not an expansion update. Furthermore I asked you to try and not bash GGG, yet here you are again bashing GGG calling the lab a failure. Do not mistake your dislike of the lab as an indication that the lab is a failure, its far from that.

They refuse to address it? You mean like making trials not be so annoying for characters, by adding more rewards to the endgame lab, they aren't just going to magically pull shit out of their ass just because you post on the forums QQing about the lab. Its not like they can make a massive change just to "appease" everyone. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will realize that you shouldn't be expecting any major changes for months in regards to the lab, thats only IF they decide they should, which GGG has made no indication that they will.

So where does this leave you, well it leaves you will a thread full of repeated comments without actually acknowledging any parts of the opposition, you just massively list anything that throws the lab out. Great impartial post by you /s

So let me get this straight, people are angry because:

1) They hate the Labyrinth and don't really articulate why they hate it.
2) People don't like the Ascendancy Points being tied to completing the Labyrinth, but don't propose an alternative way of earning the points
3) People want the Labyrinth to be redesigned to be like every other zone in the game or to offer the choice of being exactly like any other zone in the entire game: Randomly chosen monsters in random locations with big open areas. This is okay, however I find that if everything in the game is the same (Like everything was before the labyrinth got added) it gets boring pretty fast once you hit maps and level to 80.

I really enjoy the labyrinth content, I just beat the Normal version of it and it was great and the rewards felt awesome.

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

So let me get this straight, people are angry because:

1) They hate the Labyrinth and don't really articulate why they hate it.
2) People don't like the Ascendancy Points being tied to completing the Labyrinth, but don't propose an alternative way of earning the points
3) People want the Labyrinth to be redesigned to be like every other zone in the game or to offer the choice of being exactly like any other zone in the entire game: Randomly chosen monsters in random locations with big open areas. This is okay, however I find that if everything in the game is the same (Like everything was before the labyrinth got added) it gets boring pretty fast once you hit maps and level to 80.

I really enjoy the labyrinth content, I just beat the Normal version of it and it was great and the rewards felt awesome.

You didnt bother reading the opening post, did you? After you read it please consider posting a more well thought comment.

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goetzjam wrote:

More options don't always = better. More options creates a scenario where both (or multiple) ones need to be balance in consideration of challenge, considering that your goal is for at least one of the rewards to remain the same its CRUCIAL that this gets addressed properly.

True, but what made PoE popular are not arcade playstyle "puzzles", it is the whole process of individualizing your character and fight with it against stronger and stronger enemies. The traps are a mechanic that doesn't fit well into that gameplay and I do understand why many people don't like it. Especially in hardcore, the traps are just to unforgiving, cause even the normal labyrinth is troublesome for many player, no matter if they are lvl 40, 50 or even 80.

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goetzjam wrote:

"gates"

Just stop using that term. You want to benefit from getting something that requires you to do something else. Everything in this game requires you to do something to benefit. By using the term "gating" your just saying what is already implied and trying to use a term that people throw around like its a massive negative thing, which it isn't in this context or any context of the game. Using that tone of words actually encourages negative remarks and discussion and will not help you achieve your goal.

I don't understand what's wrong with the word "Gating", because it perfectly fits in this case. Take a look at the craftable stuff from the labyrinth. While it IS gated (you have to finish the labyrinth in order to be able to craft), people can still sell that stuff to other players who do not finish the labyrinth. Same goes for Aziris stuff etc. Even if you can't do it yourself, people can still sell you the stuff, giving you access to things that may be important for your build.

But wehat about ascendency points? We are not talking about some minor stuff that has little effect on you. In fact, the ascendency nodes are such huge and unique boosts, that some builds are built around them. And since you HAVE to clear the labyrnith YOURSELF, you may never get access to them if you don't like the trap rooms because you are not good at doing arcade puzzles or just dont enjoy them. I think you agree that it's not the playstyle that made PoE successful.

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goetzjam wrote:

"to cater to everyone"

This game was never meant to cater to everyone, if they ever decide to cater to everyone they have ultterly failed as a company and a game and the whole game will be worst because of it. I've already said this, so why you keep repeating this "we care about everyone" shit idk, but its really annoying.

Obviously a developer can't cater everyone, but they should cater their fanbase as much as possible. And if 50% (more or less) really HATE something that was implemented, the developer should seriously think about reworking that stuff or should try to implement alternatives for the player, especially if the content from this stuff is extremely important for character builds. Thats's why I suggested to implement a second kind of labyrinth, which is more focued on actual fighting mobs then solving trap rooms. The traps would still be there and still be very dangerous, but you can at least avoid them. This is not possible in the normal labyrinth.

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goetzjam wrote:

So its always a net NEGATIVE to make adjustments "to cater to everyone" as soon as you learn this and recognize this you will better understand why its important to NOT cater to everyone.

To say "always try to cater to everyone" is as wrong as saying "NEVER try to cater to everyone". There are situations where it is impossible to cater everyone. But there are also situations, where you CAN cater to everyone (or at least the big majority). You will never make 100% of the players happy, but in some cases you can make 95%+ happy. If they implement an alternative (classic-playstyle oriented) labyrinth on top of the existing arcade playstyle labyrinth, then I can't imagine that many people would be unhappy about that. Those, who enjoy the traps, can keep enjoying them and all the others take the other route and fight the mobs. In the end, most will be able to get the Ascadency Points and "everyone" will be happy.

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goetzjam wrote:

you just massively list anything that throws the lab out. Great impartial post by you /s

Sorry, but he also lists suggestions like mine that keep the current labyrinth untouched. We (the player who don't like the arcade playstyle) just want to have an alternative way to get the Ascandency points. It doesn't automatically mean that the arcade labyrinth has to be removed...

Starting to think maybe a good compromise would be to make the first two points in normal accessible outside the lab and the rest stay in it. A way to do this with minimal changes to the game might be to give the normal points after completing the 6 trials with completing normal lab still necessary for the glove enchants or w/e. Then for those who want more than 2 points make access to the cruel trials restricted upon having completed normal lab first.

This way people who want more than 2 points still have to run normal lab and cruel etc but people who want just the bare bones 2 for w/e minimal build defining thing can get it without the headache of the lab and it won't require any huge changes to the current system.

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Regulator wrote:

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

So let me get this straight, people are angry because:

1) They hate the Labyrinth and don't really articulate why they hate it.
2) People don't like the Ascendancy Points being tied to completing the Labyrinth, but don't propose an alternative way of earning the points
3) People want the Labyrinth to be redesigned to be like every other zone in the game or to offer the choice of being exactly like any other zone in the entire game: Randomly chosen monsters in random locations with big open areas. This is okay, however I find that if everything in the game is the same (Like everything was before the labyrinth got added) it gets boring pretty fast once you hit maps and level to 80.

I really enjoy the labyrinth content, I just beat the Normal version of it and it was great and the rewards felt awesome.

You didnt bother reading the opening post, did you? After you read it please consider posting a more well thought comment.

I did, one of his complaints got largely solved by making it so you don't have to do the 6 small tasks with each character you make. He then goes on to say that potions that give a flat amount of health over a set amount of time somehow benefit low health players more?? How? It restores the same amount over the same period of time regardless of how much flat health your character has...

Then he goes on to proposing suggestions to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Starting to think maybe a good compromise would be to make the first two points in normal accessible outside the lab and the rest stay in it. A way to do this with minimal changes to the game might be to give the normal points after completing the 6 trials with completing normal lab still necessary for the glove enchants or w/e. Then for those who want more than 2 points make access to the cruel trials restricted upon having completed normal lab first.

This way people who want more than 2 points still have to run normal lab and cruel etc but people who want just the bare bones 2 for w/e minimal build defining thing can get it without the headache of the lab and it won't require any huge changes to the current system.

But there are also builds that depend on having 4 or 6 points. Why restrict build options by forcing the player to play a completely different game? The labyrinth right now is less ARPG and more Arcade, combined with rogue-like elements. I would understand if the craftable stuff and the treasure room would be gated behind the labyrinth, because it's not important for character individualization, but the AC-Points are to impactful. I lost 2 characters on the normal labyrinth, because I'm terribly bad when it comes to plattformer- and arcade-games and it kinda gets frustrating that I can't built the character I have theory-crafted just because of this. I don't have troubles beating all the bosses in merciless on HC, but the labyrinth gives me a headache.

Don't get me wrong. It's not like I COULDN'T enjoy the labyrinth. I'm actually happy when I manage to get through a big trap room. But for me it's just impossible to finish the whole lab because I lack the perception/dexterity for those puzzles, which restricts me from getting the very important AC Points... And that's why I'm suggesting alternatives for players who are in the same boat as me. :/

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

This way people who want more than 2 points still have to run normal lab and cruel etc but people who want just the bare bones 2 for w/e minimal build defining thing can get it without the headache of the lab and it won't require any huge changes to the current system.

You're diminishing the neccessity of the labyrinth by 33.33%, that's not a small value.

The point was to try and reach a compromise between the two positions. I think it's clear by now GGG has no interest in removing all the points from the lab.