Labyrinth is one of the best additions PoE ever had

super mario? arent you guys making stuff up?

entire lab is a series of small maps with good (even very good) mob density with SOME 'traps' (that are mostly irrelevant in practice). noone is forcing you to grind it. you do it once per diff to get 2 asc REWARD points. and you are free to do whatever you like the most.

navigating it is not more difficult than playing Dungeon/Cells map

i find completing the 'root of the problems' quest more difficult than these 'super mario traps' - should we remove quests too?

people do not like it because they are not good at it (+ there were serious stability issues during few past days, it might be a reason for some dissent) and their old tricks cannot give them the quick, fast, painless victory they are so conditioned to.

and as for the builds - now we have to design our builds smarter as if we want to get ascendancy points our builds have to work without chicken makros and tp-out to safety techniques.

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ForciblyBaptized wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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ForciblyBaptized wrote:

This seems to divide players more than anything added to this game before... some like, many hate.

from what i read here there are like 5 that 'hate'. i wont post names as this is against the rules but anyone can read trough the 'complain' threads and check names. easy to see the seeds of discontent

it seems that pretty much everyone else is 'at worst' indifferent to it and some even like the addition

Played this game now some maybe 2,5 years, I do read these forums often, but I think have written maybe once about something here before. Is not first time though, I have opinion of something. Do understand many don't write here at all. This does not mean, those people do not have any opinion either, it only means they are not writing here.

Of people I have on my friend list, I see many have now quit. This also is first patch I see during this time I've played, causing so much bad feelings to many players. Is kinda easy to see if reading recent posts on forums, compared to earlier patches. Only GGG knows if has impacted player amounts, but atleast many I know and used to play with, has now quit.

Putting Ascendancy points behind something else, hardly would make labyrinths any less satisfying to anyone..? It would though, for many, make PoE not feel like Super Mario, Then many old fans would again enjoy it. Brainless too long puzzles was not, and has not been, a reason I play this, focus has been on constantly exploring builds and such. This part of game feels now very different.

Is kinda twisted, I do agree this being best patch so far, with all content it has... BUT at the same time, 1 small detail (points behind lab) destroys fun completely... Is really stupid situation.

Isn't is just that you have hard time breaking habits from these previous 2,5 years of playing?
I mean, whole game needs you to do Super Mario stuff... You need to dodge bullets from bosses, you need to position yourself properly. Why are traps somehow so different from fighting monsters? Yes, they give you no exp, yes, they cannot be killed. But you still get your rewards - chest at the end, Ascendancy points and enchants.
I understand that it might be hard at first - I too, find myself sometimes trying to rush the Lab. I died once that way. So did friend of mine. It feels dumb. But this is something PoE made us do after all this years of BRAINLESS farm. I think this is the very same thing people were complaining about - PoE being too repetitive and grindy.

TBH I find you feedback the most valuable of all of the others, but I still feel you should give Lab more thought and some time to digest it.

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sidtherat wrote:

super mario? arent you guys making stuff up?

entire lab is a series of small maps with good (even very good) mob density with SOME 'traps' (that are mostly irrelevant in practice). noone is forcing you to grind it. you do it once per diff to get 2 asc REWARD points. and you are free to do whatever you like the most.

navigating it is not more difficult than playing Dungeon/Cells map

i find completing the 'root of the problems' quest more difficult than these 'super mario traps' - should we remove quests too?

people do not like it because they are not good at it (+ there were serious stability issues during few past days, it might be a reason for some dissent) and their old tricks cannot give them the quick, fast, painless victory they are so conditioned to.

and as for the builds - now we have to design our builds smarter as if we want to get ascendancy points our builds have to work without chicken makros and tp-out to safety techniques.

Making stuff up? Look what a fellow white knight of yours wrote for labyrinth

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IceDeal wrote:

I'm a big roguelike and roguelite fan and the lab is an amazing addition to the game.

And thats coming for someone who liked the lab. If that alone is not enough for you to undestand the difference in playstyle then i feel sorry for you.

And when will you stop using the difficulty argument? ITS NON EXISTANT. Ive yet to see someone complaining about labyrinth's difficulty level (im not speaking for izaro). Labyrinth is probably one of the easiest content ever implemented. We just dont what to play this mixture of lame things. You cant see reason and keep making arrogant comments.

@Perq

So instead of white knight if i used the term "lovers" or "supporters of the lab" would you feel better about it? Its nothing personal and surely not an insult. Unless you take it for such in which case guess what...

White knight is the person who defends something out of compassion or emotion, without any drop of logic. After all this responses and arguments on the "haters" side, the white knights still have not made a valid agrument for their cause. Everything they say comes down to that arrogant/egotistical style of comment : Youd dont deserve AC if you cant beat lab, it needs skill and we are better.

And i will ask again for a well though answer from you : What the issue if you keep the labyrinth as it is and remove the AC points from it? You still get to enjoy your runs, i will start enjoying the new expansion and everything is ok. As it is only the few who are into arcade games have fun replaying the lab, the rest who did it shallowed their pride or just wanted to experiment and try something new, NONE OF LATTER WILL EVER RUN LAB AGAIN.

And a final question : When in the next expansion (just a speculation for my argument's sake) GGG decides to make some extra subclasses and they gate it behind an area like Core with a boss 2times deadlier and harder than Core's Malachai, where you are not allowed to party to enter the area (thus eliminating any chance to cheese it or buy it), the area can be visited only after you killed merciless malachai solo, and restricts any movement skill. What would your reaction be? How would gating something behind a frustrating and unfun/boring fight/mechanic feel for you gentlemen?

Not that i have high hopes getting an answer, since the white knights still speak with their head diped inside their arses, no reason no logic. Lets keep lab and AC points linked to it cause reasons! YEAH! (sarcasm in case i need to explain even more basics)

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sidtherat wrote:

super mario? arent you guys making stuff up?

entire lab is a series of small maps with good (even very good) mob density with SOME 'traps' (that are mostly irrelevant in practice). noone is forcing you to grind it. you do it once per diff to get 2 asc REWARD points. and you are free to do whatever you like the most.

navigating it is not more difficult than playing Dungeon/Cells map

i find completing the 'root of the problems' quest more difficult than these 'super mario traps' - should we remove quests too?

Oh boy... how wrong impression can some get from this...

This has nothing to do how hard they are, has everything to do how different from "normal" PoE they are, and and sucky many think they are. No, traps not hard. I do get it, if spikes or some blades would hit, wait, and go then. Bravo. It's just... is gameplay-wise something I got bored with, when I was 10. Problem is, they too ez to feel like anything but waste of time, and still taking very very long. And skip = fail, if wish to REALLY enjoy some build later on.

Simple as this: gameplay now feels not fun at all. But based on former post, I assume You soon tell me, this is wrong feeling to get, since You don't feel this way.

Focus for me has always been constantly exploring new builds, and messing around with them. And not meaning with this, just copying some random dudes build. This labyrinth thing makes such semi-casual gameplay a pain in the ass, rather than being entertaining. This is why I think would be better if such important thing as Ascendancy classes would not be behind lab, that is all.

And this Root of Problem quest You struggle with... I think is pretty similiar like rest of PoE, not the same thing and cannot really compare. But if feels hard, You just have to design your builds smarter as if you want to get quest items your builds have to work without chicken makros and tp-out to safety techniques. People do not like it because they are not good at it and their old tricks cannot give them the quick, fast, painless victory they are so conditioned to.

Seeing more labirynth hate, I try like to understand what the problem is and fail.

What's the big deal about Labirynth? How is it different then the rest of game?

I get it you guys don't like the ascendancy class locked after lab run. Tbh, I'm not big fan either. But how is that different from questing during levelling? You do it for progress, then you never have to do it again (on given char).

As for gameplay, Lab requires you to navigate through map, avoid traps, kill monsters, beat boss at the end and get some loot. You are not supposed to die during your run.

Ok, so, how is that different from mapping? I mean, it feels different (more roguelike), sure, but the core things you do remain the same. Ok, traps are mobile/timed and frozen/shocked ground in map is not. Big deal, you avoid them either way. You are not supposed to die. As if we were supposed to die in maps, with 80% xp bar filled in. Navigating through Labirynth and its complex layout. Happens a lot in maps too. Boss at the end of Lab. Oh dear, where else could we have seen this?

You don't have be labirynth fan ofc, but you can do it 3 times and forget about it, as you can do it with Malachai.

So, what's the big deal? Is it really THAT different from the core game?

In a nutshell:

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Perq wrote:

To balance out all these salty Labyrinth threads...

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Perq wrote:

...Yes, I'm mocking all these people.

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Perq wrote:

Isn't is just that you have hard time breaking habits from these previous 2,5 years of playing?
I mean, whole game needs you to do Super Mario stuff... You need to dodge bullets from bosses, you need to position yourself properly. Why are traps somehow so different from fighting monsters? Yes, they give you no exp, yes, they cannot be killed. But you still get your rewards - chest at the end, Ascendancy points and enchants.
I understand that it might be hard at first - I too, find myself sometimes trying to rush the Lab. I died once that way. So did friend of mine. It feels dumb. But this is something PoE made us do after all this years of BRAINLESS farm. I think this is the very same thing people were complaining about - PoE being too repetitive and grindy.

TBH I find you feedback the most valuable of all of the others, but I still feel you should give Lab more thought and some time to digest it.

Honestly need me to list things NOT the same at labyrinth or at mapping? If haven't noticed difference, I'm amazed... Or what is the dps recommended against traps? Life leech recommended? How about block chance? Evasion, dodge, resists..? I think really has major differences, compared to what used to be things people thought about when making builds (well atleast the 2% NOT using 100% copied builds).

Hard time braking habbits kinda sounds reasonable, is very close what this is about, altough not that sipmle.. to digest it, I'd need to force myself to like something I do not, would be first time in any game I do such. And I think we are on thin ice anyways if such action inside players head is needed... Is first time this kind of thing also included in PoE patch. Atziri, masters, hideout, and such can be skipped without major penalty, unlike now.

Is the "must" aspect of this lab, that ruins it all. Makes me wonder why would anyone want to sort of "brainwash" me in order to let me do what I used to like doing. I admit also being a bit thick-skulled anyways, is in my nature :) But playing some game without feeling it entertaining, is not a thing I will do, since is meant to do just that - to entertain.

And is just not me, also this already has had other impact, many has quit now. Even if I learned to love this new stuff, still I would be left with smaller community, this also sucks... and is mostly the reason why posting now about this, I am worried.

@ForciblyBaptized

Masters were (and still are) quite hated for how they were implemented. The amount of grind, challenges - the list goes on. You are right that they are far less impact (well, tbh I'm not so sure about that - the crafts + discounted currency gives quite a advantage), but still - does every optional content has to be equally impactful?
Game did not change in a matter you cannot play without Ascendancy points. They are VERY powerful, everyone wants to get them. And quite frankly, they are far easier to get than anything optional - they are nowhere near as hard to get as Atziri (let alone Uber Atziri). Yet still people don't complain as much about Atziri being gated behind difficulty. (there were similar voices back then - GGG still has money, and still has supporters)

So you have something that has far greater rewards for completing far less difficult content. Would it be better if Ascendancy points were far less powerful?

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Regulator wrote:

So instead of white knight if i used the term "lovers" or "supporters of the lab" would you feel better about it? Its nothing personal and surely not an insult. Unless you take it for such in which case guess what...

1. White knight is the person who defends something out of compassion or emotion, without any drop of logic. After all this responses and arguments on the "haters" side, the white knights still have not made a valid agrument for their cause. Everything they say comes down to that arrogant/egotistical style of comment : Youd dont deserve AC if you cant beat lab, it needs skill and we are better.

And i will ask again for a well though answer from you : 2. What the issue if you keep the labyrinth as it is and remove the AC points from it? You still get to enjoy your runs, i will start enjoying the new expansion and everything is ok. As it is only the few who are into arcade games have fun replaying the lab, the rest who did it shallowed their pride or just wanted to experiment and try something new, NONE OF LATTER WILL EVER RUN LAB AGAIN.

And a final question : 3. When in the next expansion (just a speculation for my argument's sake) GGG decides to make some extra subclasses and they gate it behind an area like Core with a boss 2times deadlier and harder than Core's Malachai, where you are not allowed to party to enter the area (thus eliminating any chance to cheese it or buy it), the area can be visited only after you killed merciless malachai solo, and restricts any movement skill. What would your reaction be? How would gating something behind a frustrating and unfun/boring fight/mechanic feel for you gentlemen?

4. Not that i have high hopes getting an answer, since the white knights still speak with their head diped inside their arses, no reason no logic. Lets keep lab and AC points linked to it cause reasons! YEAH! (sarcasm in case i need to explain even more basics)

1. You sure know how to explain what white-knighting is, but you fail at the point of logic. All I did was explaining to you, and answering your argument, yet you still need to go with name-calling. You still don't address those, instead repeat same thing over and over again like a mantra. :V
Call me white-knight and whatever you like all day long. It only says what kind of person you are. :v

2. Ascendancy is bound to lore and they are rewards for completing the labyrinth. That is easy enough to understand.

3. I already answered this one. In this thread. This is a clear indication to me that you are not even reading my responses - you are just saying same things over and over again, thinking that adding random passive-aggressive slurs and/or labels will convince anyone that you are right. You can call me one that is not using logic and comprehension, yet you don't even read what you are answering to. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that you should look in the mirror.

4. Yeah - because you don't even read the responses. Why is that? Well, again, read your post, and reasons for that will be clear.

Bonus point, off-topic, that I should ignore, but lets give it a go! :D

"Ps. White-knight argument again. Oh well, guess it is all kid/white-knight/ego/your-idea... Says a lot about level of discussion coming from you."

Perq you are losing this battle and alot of respect along the way my friend you are in no way the soul force voice of the POE community so stop acting like it. you may like the new Xpack and thats fine and you have a right to voice that but what you do not have is the right to criticize everyone for pointing out valid reasons for not liking it on a personal level like they are attacking you. Can you smell dev poo all the time with your nose in the current state?

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Perq wrote:

Masters were (and still are) quite hated for how they were implemented. The amount of grind, challenges - the list goes on. You are right that they are far less impact (well, tbh I'm not so sure about that - the crafts + discounted currency gives quite a advantage), but still - does every optional content has to be equally impactful?
Game did not change in a matter you cannot play without Ascendancy points. They are VERY powerful, everyone wants to get them. And quite frankly, they are far easier to get than anything optional - they are nowhere near as hard to get as Atziri (let alone Uber Atziri). Yet still people don't complain as much about Atziri being gated behind difficulty. (there were similar voices back then - GGG still has money, and still has supporters)

So you have something that has far greater rewards for completing far less difficult content. Would it be better if Ascendancy points were far less powerful?

Masters are optional in different way, if wish to have a really good item, is better if has no master mod. Try make better char, compared to one with 6 Ascendancy points... discounted currency also very different, only makes things faster. Masters also would be equally hated, if those daily missions were now only way to get currency, after patch that added them masters.

And if thinking, no balance at all will be added, to compensate Ascendancy points... right. If this won't happen in near future, I promise to rip off my left nut, and send it to You in a letter. So much for being "optional" feature.

And of Atziri, no I do not think those items are equally much "needed" to have, compared to Ascendany classes. Not even close. And if are, can grind and buy from other player, who LIKES to grind Atziri, not to mention being completely unable to get those without making the actual kill byself. People are not forced to run them, if not willing to.

This is the problem, new content this time one must just accept, no matter if likes or not, or fail. This time it's "do it or gtfo". And for many, it makes most of gaming hours feel like playing very very different game. And also rekt old chars at the same on std, if skipping labs, not cool at all.

Making Ascendancy points less powerful I'd think is bad solution. Putting them behind Malachai kill for example, would be better. Also maybe even more logical in a way, complete the game: get reward. Now there is none. Is odd GGG rather forces us to run some irrelevant mini-game-like feeling thing, instead of actually making us to complete the storyline...

Still thinking new content good, for some propably gives much more fun this used to give. But for many, it pretty much ruined this. This masterpiece of a game turns into brainless farming only if players themselves are just copying some OP builds, I think problem never was the lack of endless halls with idiotic traps a child could pass.