Labyrinth,the worst content ever made in POE?

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ACGIFT wrote:

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Jaille wrote:

edit: shit maybe an hour and 15 minutes if you include the trials

Someone's exaggerating how fast they're doing it.

It will be amusing when the leaderboards come out and we see that most people were lying on how fast they were, just like they were lying how fast they cleared maps. Many people are claiming times that aren't even possible with pure running with well over 100% increased movement speed... And I'm pretty positive my archer is one of the very fastest-moving characters in the entire game. (+249%, though I'll admit I could squeeze a few things and sacrifice to make it +300%)

my favourite: "I'm bad at this so it is impossible that others can be good!!"


here is a tip: 7+ minute run with Slayer (the worst ascendancy by far) lvl72, 2h, leveling gear, 3.7k hp. without 2 navigating mistakes and checking lockboxes it is ~6 minute run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz1CJCsfR0k&feature=youtu.be


it might be a shock but there are players far better than you are. and even more shocking: you wont get better if you do not try to.

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sidtherat wrote:

my favourite: "I'm bad at this so it is impossible that others can be good!!"

So the best you can do is try to turn it into an insult of another player's capacity?

Also, I notice your run is distinctly well over 5 minutes... AND was on one of the most linear, simple layouts we've had yet, that didn't even call for any gold doors... AND you'd clearly been running the same layout several times. (For the record, my shortest time is currently about 10-11 minutes, but I'd not bothered to run it more than 3 times, and there WAS a gold key involved)

If you're ascending each new character, you won't have a memorized layout of the labyrinth, because each one will be new. Once you stack on a bunch of (guaranteed through RNG) mis-steps and backtracks, you wind up spending a LOT more time.

Also, my main target was them asserting you can handle all 18 trials in under 15 minutes. Once you add in the rest of the floor of each dungeon and seeking out each trial? Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

5 minutes is most probably technical limit due to loading times and Izi mechanics - these cannot be bypassed no matter what

as for the record this is a NEW character leveled during last 3 days to test Slayer - i did Normal lab at 28 (succeeded on second try, first one crisped in lava - 15% fire res..), Cruel at 46-48 (leveled twice inside) doing it like a map - killing everything in sight - on the second try (first one died to super-charged Izy), Merc at 63(?) on the first try

i leveled a new character for the very purpose of checking how 'brutal' the time tax on 'trials' is - and was PLEASANTLY surprised that the Trials add VERY little time WHEN LEVELING as these are simply directly on the way. it is far more disrupting when done on standard characters but when leveling the cost is minimal and i can agree that the leveling got longer by ~1hour due to 2 labs and 18 trials

note: that was my 4th run of this layout

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ACGIFT wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

my favourite: "I'm bad at this so it is impossible that others can be good!!"

So the best you can do is try to turn it into an insult of another player's capacity?

Also, I notice your run is distinctly well over 5 minutes... AND was on one of the most linear, simple layouts we've had yet, that didn't even call for any gold doors... AND you'd clearly been running the same layout several times. (For the record, my shortest time is currently about 10-11 minutes, but I'd not bothered to run it more than 3 times, and there WAS a gold key involved)

If you're ascending each new character, you won't have a memorized layout of the labyrinth, because each one will be new. Once you stack on a bunch of (guaranteed through RNG) mis-steps and backtracks, you wind up spending a LOT more time.

Also, my main target was them asserting you can handle all 18 trials in under 15 minutes. Once you add in the rest of the floor of each dungeon and seeking out each trial? Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

He proved you wrong. Quit backtracking it just makes you look worse.

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sidtherat wrote:

5 minutes is most probably technical limit due to loading times and Izi mechanics - these cannot be bypassed no matter what

Though, don't forget the rest of the turnaround time... Your timer starts as soon as you've gained control in the first Labyrinth zone... The loading timer from Aspirant's Plaza is, at least from all my experience, abysmal, often waiting 1.5-2 minutes while it loads. (MIGHT be related to using Steam Client, who knows)

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sidtherat wrote:

as for the record this is a NEW character leveled during last 3 days to test Slayer - i did Normal lab at 28 (succeeded on second try, first one crisped in lava - 15% fire res..), Cruel at 46-48 (leveled twice inside) doing it like a map - killing everything in sight - on the second try (first one died to super-charged Izy), Merc at 63(?) on the first try

Part of it, I'll grant, is also technical still: I noticed you never really had any slowdown/big drop of framerate fighting Izaro. A lot of folks have to suffer with it often hiccuping for good fractions of a second.

Sure, you can play AROUND such issues... But working around them invariably adds time to the whole ordeal. The same can go for when it stutters around traps. I had a couple of deaths from traps purely because the server hiccuped, (my own framerate kept at 60, and my ping at 30) and I was entirely pushed out of sync with how to control my character. (and when you move faster without buffs/flasks than almost all characters do WITH them... Control actually gets HARDER)

I WILL say that if they fix the technical issues so that I no longer see them, I'm pretty sure I'll at least majorly be in the running for those leaderboards, and probably be able to capture one or two.

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sidtherat wrote:

i leveled a new character for the very purpose of checking how 'brutal' the time tax on 'trials' is - and was PLEASANTLY surprised that the Trials add VERY little time WHEN LEVELING as these are simply directly on the way. it is far more disrupting when done on standard characters

Well, note that before the trials, I never had a reason to go into the catacombs, which now exist for solely that purpose. (Pre-2.0, they at least where a dense, higher-leveled zone for grinding)

Similarly, even while leveling... I suspect they still add a lot more time than believed, since normally I blitz for the end of all those zones; overall, I'd say that between the act of searching FOR the trial, along with doing it, I definitely add a few minutes to every single one of those zones.

note: i had ONE poe-client crash during last 2 years. few disconnects (full realm crashes) and in general i do not experience ANY serious performance issues when playing (GF 770 2400*1400 windowed, all max) - i do notice slowdowns when strongboxes open or whatnot but it is never dangerous

i do however have 48gb ram with 12gb as ramdisc (not enough to fit POE there as i use it for other things but who knows)

i understand and acknowledge that technical issues can be pretty bad when they occur - but this has little to do with Lab itself, more with the engine limitations and more-than-few glaring bugs that got trough QA before release..

So, sidtherat, do you seriously believe that the only criticism people have are that it's taking them too long and/or that it's too difficult? Really?

I wouldn't care if the Lab was a fixed 10 minute race with no trials, the same layout every time and guaranteed success. I'd still not like it. The gameplay is dull and (to me) not challenging, just annoying and slow.

Even if it was really difficult, it wouldn't make it more enjoyable. Tried that too, ran on a really weak character with terrible gear, at the appropriate level (normal and cruel). Was definitely much harder, but it wasn't fun in the least. Then I crashed after getting to phase 3 after well over an hour of slogging in cruel (weak character like I said), so I just stopped. It was just an experiment anyway, no biggie.

This is not what I've come to expect from Path of Exile, and it's definitely not what I'd like to see in future content.

That you (and others) enjoy it and find it thrilling, that's great. And I mean that, good for you. Now, if the Lab truly was optional content then all would be well. Decoupling Ascendancy points would accomplish that, and we could all be friends again. It's that simple, really. And please don't reboot that tired debate whether ascending is optional or not, just don't.

it is up to the player if it is optional or not. it is a new content, powerful new content, but on the other hand - 2.2 has the same difficulty as 2.1 so if someone did ok before he can manage without it. but im not ready to say it is 'optional'


i see one reason why GGG made it like it is - to weed out certain build types (that is - fullbanana banzai...) and teach players some basics - that flasks are important, that standing still in front of the boss is only for those that KNOW they will survive etc etc

completing this lab makes sure that player knows that. it is very difficult to do it in merciless with 3.1k hp, medium life flasks and not paying attention. GGG gives these players a chance to get better. they had to select this way - no logout - because all previous attempts were simply zerged down (i myself zerged Merc Mala like 30 times on one of my glassbanana characters - just for lols) and taught people nothing except that tp-out and alt-f4 are the strongest spells in the game

it is obvious that without incentive noone will willingly attempt such challenge, thats why Asc points are there. and IMO - will remain there. it simply makes too much sense.

they had to cure power creep somehow - and this is pretty good way. good players hardly notice it and they remain powerful. bad/new players have to learn so they can reach the power level they are aspiring to. in 2.1 everyone could achieve highest level of power - copy-paste + trade and you have a 'pro player'. with more power than he deserved.


i somewhat understand that the departure from right-click to victory is frustrating for some but i also gave myself a chance and experienced this 'as is' while leveling. i'd need a microscope to spot the differences between Lab and rest of the game - you kill stuff, you run, you pick up loot. traps are minor part of this experience. Dungeon or Tunnel maps are bigger labyrinths than the Lab itself

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sidtherat wrote:

it is up to the player if it is optional or not. it is a new content, powerful new content, but on the other hand - 2.2 has the same difficulty as 2.1 so if someone did ok before he can manage without it. but im not ready to say it is 'optional'

I recall some of GGG's patch notes saying that they rebalanced some of the higher-level content to ACCOUNT for the power of ascendancies... If they did that, it automatically makes ascending mandatory because it's "assumed by the devs." It goes into the same category as "upgrading your gear."

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sidtherat wrote:

that flasks are important, that standing still in front of the boss is only for those that KNOW they will survive etc etc

And somehow the existing game doesn't already include that? Most characters (such as any first character on a league that wasn't loaded by previous ones) will almost invariably HAVE to use flasks for, say, Merciless Dominus. We learn that well enough.

However, if you're CI? Well, I'm not sure that's a good lesson those traps teach... "Your build is worthless because you can't pop life flasks."

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sidtherat wrote:

completing this lab makes sure that player knows that. it is very difficult to do it in merciless with 3.1k hp, medium life flasks and not paying attention. GGG gives these players a chance to get better. they had to select this way - no logout - because all previous attempts were simply zerged down (i myself zerged Merc Mala like 30 times on one of my glassbanana characters - just for lols) and taught people nothing except that tp-out and alt-f4 are the strongest spells in the game

"Forcing the players to learn irrelevant stuff" is not a very good gameplay reason to include content in a game.

That'd be like including a Tetris game in Call of Duty and mandating that players beat it to actually get all the guns.

That's part of the huge problem: You claim it's good because "it teaches players something," but what it teaches doesn't make them any better at the rest of the game at all. That's a fundamental disconnect that is a hallmark of bad game design.

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sidtherat wrote:

it is obvious that without incentive noone will willingly attempt such challenge, thats why Asc points are there. and IMO - will remain there. it simply makes too much sense.

This illustrates the real weakness of the labyrinth: for most players, the labyrinth is not fun. A quick look at other posts show that people do NOT want to do it, and only do it because mandatory upgrades are gated behind it.

It's enough that at least 50% (GGG's words, not mine) are very unhappy, and are considering never making a new character again, plus the fraction of those that have already quit over it.

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sidtherat wrote:

they had to cure power creep somehow - and this is pretty good way. good players hardly notice it and they remain powerful. bad/new players have to learn so they can reach the power level they are aspiring to. in 2.1 everyone could achieve highest level of power - copy-paste + trade and you have a 'pro player'. with more power than he deserved.

That did nothing to cure power creep. Power creep = players keep getting stronger, typically coupled with monsters/threats getting stronger to create a "new normal."

And guess what? Ascendancies made them stronger, a LOT stronger. And monsters were apparently made stronger as well.

So this actually just exasperated power creep, the OPPOSITE of what you claimed it did.

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sidtherat wrote:

i somewhat understand that the departure from right-click to victory is frustrating for some but i also gave myself a chance and experienced this 'as is' while leveling. i'd need a microscope to spot the differences between Lab and rest of the game - you kill stuff, you run, you pick up loot. traps are minor part of this experience. Dungeon or Tunnel maps are bigger labyrinths than the Lab itself

Dungeon isn't that large or complex a map. It doesn't actually involve that much doubling-back at all. Similarly, Tunnel didn't take that long either.

As far as what you missed because you apparently needed a microsope:

• Try facing traps without a life+regen-based char like you used for speedrunning to "prove" it was easy. Better yet, try CI and see how quickly you can pass those traps.
  
  
• Traps doing percentile damage creates the warped inconsistency where it gets HARDER if you improve your character. Add more life? Then flasks are that much less effective.
  
  
• Most people are NOT as fortunate to be miraculously free of technical issues. And because GGG decided to force this content on players WITHOUT fixing the issues first? That was THEIR decision, so yes, that's part of the context of the labyrinth. They could just as well have said "wait guys, we'll release labyrinth, but first those programmers will work on re-doing our engine to properly support it first."
  
  
• The "you have to sit down for the whole thing" part is a MAJOR departure from maps. Maps can be finished in a fraction of the time, and even if you need to go for a little bit, you can portal out to safety.
  
  
• In exchange, there is actually little real CHALLENGE to be found: you kind of demonstrated that with your own speedruns. You CAN facetank Izaro, and you CAN just blitz through traps... And in fact, such tactics are core to the goal of doing it fast! So it just defeats its own purpose.

oh please.. now CI? i will do a CI run - but what next? CI when played right has little to no issues down there and the ES regen makes even Izaro a pushover. so whats next after CI?

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That's part of the huge problem: You claim it's good because "it teaches players something," but what it teaches doesn't make them any better at the rest of the game at all. That's a fundamental disconnect that is a hallmark of bad game design.

ofc it does. but currently they do not need it - they can right click to victory. but imagine what happens when the game in 2.3 gets a lot harder than it is now. just imagine that.

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This illustrates the real weakness of the labyrinth: for most players, the labyrinth is not fun. A quick look at other posts show that people do NOT want to do it, and only do it because mandatory upgrades are gated behind it.

posts where 5 guys repeat the same stuff

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It's enough that at least 50% (GGG's words, not mine) are very unhappy, and are considering never making a new character again, plus the fraction of those that have already quit over it.

you are doing it again - better link the source of this BS and fast because it is getting ridiculous

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That did nothing to cure power creep. Power creep = players keep getting stronger, typically coupled with monsters/threats getting stronger to create a "new normal."

ofc it did. bad players cannot reach the power levels previously occupied. the disparity between good and bad players grew significantly. this cures the power creep for the under-skilled players. good players will manage regardless

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As far as what you missed because you apparently needed a microsope:

Try facing traps without a life+regen-based char like you used for speedrunning to "prove" it was easy. Better yet, try CI and see how quickly you can pass those traps.

Traps doing percentile damage creates the warped inconsistency where it gets HARDER if you improve your character. Add more life? Then flasks are that much less effective.

Most people are NOT as fortunate to be miraculously free of technical issues. And because GGG decided to force this content on players WITHOUT fixing the issues first? That was THEIR decision, so yes, that's part of the context of the labyrinth. They could just as well have said "wait guys, we'll release labyrinth, but first those programmers will work on re-doing our engine to properly support it first."

The "you have to sit down for the whole thing" part is a MAJOR departure from maps. Maps can be finished in a fraction of the time, and even if you need to go for a little bit, you can portal out to safety.

In exchange, there is actually little real CHALLENGE to be found: you kind of demonstrated that with your own speedruns. You CAN facetank Izaro, and you CAN just blitz through traps... And in fact, such tactics are core to the goal of doing it fast! So it just defeats its own purpose.

i can facetank Izaro because my build does not suck. i can speed run it because i know what to do and when to do it. you see - it is called skill.

when i hear traps + flasks i know that the player DOES NOT know what he is doing. flasks are there for the oh sh moments and are not to be used as a mean to survival. when doing CI runs there are no flasks and i have no problems whatsoever. so maybe it is - again - skill based content despite you trying to downplay it

note: i was doing <10 min runs on Day 1 of the patch with life/es hybrid most 'pro players' deemed impossible to do. so please.. the only part of this is the tech issues - these suck and should not be there in the first place. but all else is L2P issue