First Wave of Trade Improvements

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cipher_nemo wrote:

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MaliceSong wrote:

Quite simple, except for the fact that that's the exact opposite of the way PoE is advertised.

Advertised? Please show me where having trade listing features in a Premium Tab is the "opposite" of their advertising. GGG has claimed "ethical monetization system", and I don't see where this new feature would be unethical at all. GGG isn't selling gear, gems, flasks, buffs, or currency through micro-transactions, so there's no P2W.

I'd say

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The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

(from https://www.pathofexile.com/game)

is, in fact, the complete opposite of the general statement:

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cipher_nemo wrote:

so if you want an extra feature, you pay for it

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cipher_nemo wrote:

So, for arguments sake, I would agree that this first wave of trading improvements does violate that statement of "purely cosmetic items".

Well, you actually found a better quote than me, there you go.

For the record, if you perceived trading as a secondary gameplay feature and didn't mind GGG charging for those and not just for cosmetic MTX, then that's actually totally fine. I'd disagree, but meh, different opinions, you know.

It's the overwhelming insistence that the complaints are about the money I take issue with. If that's not what you wanted to express and I came across as abrasive, I have to apologize. We seem to be mostly in agreement, just with different emphases. I'm just trying to point out that people have brought up a lot of different, imo valid points - many of them unrelated to the actual cost of premium tabs.

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Drahken wrote:

...i'll buy your premium tabs to use this obvious feature that anyone who plays this game will want to use. you lost some PR over it though, I doubt you will make enough with the premium tabs to make it worth it.

Agreed. Now half the people will recommend this game to others as f2p and the other half as f2p but starting to ask for money for needed qol upgrades besides cosmetic effects.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

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MaliceSong wrote:

Quite simple, except for the fact that that's the exact opposite of the way PoE is advertised.

Advertised? Please show me where having trade listing features in a Premium Tab is the "opposite" of their advertising. GGG has claimed "ethical monetization system", and I don't see where this new feature would be unethical at all. GGG isn't selling gear, gems, flasks, buffs, or currency through micro-transactions, so there's no P2W.

However, if I wanted to play the devil's advocate and argue for your point, Wilson from GGG did state this...

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We hate the concept of pay-to-win games, so it’s great to see that players are willing to support the game and to buy purely cosmetic items.

Source: http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/news/i138830/Kiwi-RPG-Path-of-Exile-secures-US-200-000-in-crowdfunding/

So, for arguments sake, I would agree that this first wave of trading improvements does violate that statement of "purely cosmetic items".

I have seen you post many comments defending this issue like it's your job. and many others saying "if you want it than pay up". and also many implying we are a bunch of freeloaders.

I have spent around $50ish on this game.. and I think I have gotten more than my monies worth out of it, but that is what I consider of every great game I paid 50-60 for in my life time. Doesn't mean I am forever indebted to those games they just are the ones in the sea of crap that actually are good.

but here is my point: you started playing in 2015.. even if I had paid ZERO up until this point, it is the player base of players who devoted time to this game (I've played for a long time.. believe me this game was pretty rough around the edges and plenty of growing pains) long before you came around and started playing. these players gave the developers confidence to keep making this game as amazing as it is today, as amazing as it is when you started playing a year ago. Don't sit here and get uppity with players about being freeloaders when you wouldn't even have this game to play if it wasn't for all the people who took a chance on this much better f2p concept that PoE really defined. some of us are a little upset this new feature sits behind a pay wall. don't change up the formula now that you are a huge success.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

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PsOfOs wrote:

We really need a statement from GGG at this point,trying to change each other's way of seeing this is futile.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion about this. I'm just defending the new option and reiterating the situation by sharing my viewpoint.

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PsOfOs wrote:

If there will be future upgrades to trade that would affect all players not just premium tabs owners,now would be a good time to announce them.
Splitting your [customers] on 2 sides is bad for the company.

There will ALWAYS be at least 2 sides to everything. :-) That's human nature. If GGG made some other change, there would still be discussion and debate about it. They're obviously not intentionally wanting to divide their customers over some issue.

You're approaching this as if it's some sort of scandal instead of a new feature. And just for the record, this isn't an upgrade to trade: this feature already exists, it's just with third party software. Now, if GGG enabled auto selling for only Premium Tab owners, then there would be merit for these complaints.

This isn't an upgrade to trade?
What is it then?
Can you not post items on store with one click in 2 seconds while never tabing out?
If you only sell you're telling me it's not an upgrade?
Why were people hyped then? I own 24 premium tabs and am sure happy about it.
But it's a new direction for the company.

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MaliceSong wrote:

For the record, if you perceived trading as a secondary gameplay feature and didn't mind GGG charging for those and not just for cosmetic MTX, then that's actually totally fine. I'd disagree, but meh, different opinions, you know.

It's the overwhelming insistence that the complaints are about the money I take issue with. If that's not what you wanted to express and I came across as abrasive, I have to apologize. We seem to be mostly in agreement, just with different emphases. I'm just trying to point out that people have brought up a lot of different, imo valid points - many of them unrelated to the actual cost of premium tabs.

Understandable. So it's the principle of this that's far more important for you than the money, no matter the value. (and no worries about abrasive, I didn't take any offense) :-)

Let me ask you this: when GGG added premium tabs to the mix, did you complain about those as well to GGG? Or did you draw the line with this new feature? And what happened between when tabs were on the micro-transaction store versus now?

However, in the end I think it comes down to what we define as "ethical" micro-transactions and what exactly is "pay to win". I don't think this crosses the line, but you do. I'd agree that they crossed the line with "purely cosmetic" for sure, but that line was crossed long ago with the stash tabs.

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Drahken wrote:

I have seen you post many comments defending this issue like it's your job. and many others saying "if you want it than pay up". and also many implying we are a bunch of freeloaders.

Well, I certainly don't work for GGG, and I do hold the notion that complaining about this topic is a bit over the top, hence the "pay up" comments.

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Drahken wrote:

I have spent around $50ish on this game.. and I think I have gotten more than my monies worth out of it, but that is what I consider of every great game I paid 50-60 for in my life time. Doesn't mean I am forever indebted to those games they just are the ones in the sea of crap that actually are good.

I have a different outlook, perhaps I can put myself in GGG's shoes better than the average gamer. GGG doesn't charge a subscription fee. So if they don't keep attracting new players or getting existing players to use the micro-transaction store, they won't be able to stay in business, and PoE will vanish in the future.

I think the real difference between my views and yours is where that line is drawn in the sand. Did PoE cross it with this feature? You might believe so, but I don't. That's the real debate, not all of this side stuff we dance around with.

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Drahken wrote:

but here is my point: you started playing in 2015.. even if I had paid ZERO up until this point, it is the player base of players who devoted time to this game (I've played for a long time.. believe me this game was pretty rough around the edges and plenty of growing pains) long before you came around and started playing. these players gave the developers confidence to keep making this game as amazing as it is today...

Oh boy, here you start to babble. No offense intended on that, just stating that you're taking this in a very different direction. As if you feel some entitlement because you've been here a long time. You've spent "$50ish" here, that's great, you've helped to keep PoE going. But that doesn't improve your argument about a pay gate. I've spent more than four times your amount here, and will happily spend more over time. But that too doesn't improve my argument either. Nor does the time spent here. Anyone can research the history of GGG, it's self-driven crowd funding, its initial steps, etc., but no one individual should feel entitled to have some sort of final say in decisions like this. The community as a whole has driven PoE and GGG, not you or me alone.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

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MaliceSong wrote:

For the record, if you perceived trading as a secondary gameplay feature and didn't mind GGG charging for those and not just for cosmetic MTX, then that's actually totally fine. I'd disagree, but meh, different opinions, you know.

It's the overwhelming insistence that the complaints are about the money I take issue with. If that's not what you wanted to express and I came across as abrasive, I have to apologize. We seem to be mostly in agreement, just with different emphases. I'm just trying to point out that people have brought up a lot of different, imo valid points - many of them unrelated to the actual cost of premium tabs.

Understandable. So it's the principle of this that's far more important for you than the money, no matter the value. (and no worries about abrasive, I didn't take any offense) :-)

Let me ask you this: when GGG added premium tabs to the mix, did you complain about those as well to GGG? Or did you draw the line with this new feature? And what happened between when tabs were on the micro-transaction store versus now?

However, in the end I think it comes down to what we define as "ethical" micro-transactions and what exactly is "pay to win". I don't think this crosses the line, but you do. I'd agree that they crossed the line with "purely cosmetic" for sure, but that line was crossed long ago with the stash tabs.

All things considered it is down to how much of an "advantage" someone with more stashtabs actually has, be it premium or regular.

I believe it is fair to say that in the era of divination cards, talismans, and upcoming gear enchantments, there is some advantage at hand. I daresay that every account should come with 6 regular tabs by default instead of 4, at this point in time.

Do stash tabs make you level up faster? No, they don't.
Do stash tabs make you deal more damage to monsters? Not quite.
Do more stash tabs make trading easier, saving you time in the process? I think they did that ever since, to some degree.
Do more stash tabs allow you to make more currency? This is a tough one, regarding the changes at hand. We simply do not know that yet.

However, there is no piece of actual game content gated behind stash tabs, or a paywall for that matter. That being said, the game still is entirely free to play, as is advertised, regardless of whatever advantage there might be for users who put down money for premium tabs, or regular tabs. So, the argument of premium tabs being "pay to play" or "play to win" is invalid.

I would like to see this feature enabled for every user, no matter what they bought, no matter if they bought anything at all, no doubt. Yet it has to be gated behind some form of effort, to prevent excessive botting or abuse using multiple accounts, come what may.

I do agree that it is high time for GGG to come up with a statement of some sort, and whether you like it or not, I do not care what is going to be part of that statement, because first and foremost this topic needs to be dealt with as quickly as possible.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

Understandable. So it's the principle of this that's far more important for you than the money, no matter the value. (and no worries about abrasive, I didn't take any offense) :-)

Let me ask you this: when GGG added premium tabs to the mix, did you complain about those as well to GGG? Or did you draw the line with this new feature? And what happened between when tabs were on the micro-transaction store versus now?

However, in the end I think it comes down to what we define as "ethical" micro-transactions and what exactly is "pay to win". I don't think this crosses the line, but you do. I'd agree that they crossed the line with "purely cosmetic" for sure, but that line was crossed long ago with the stash tabs.

I started playing "seriously" with the Vaal expansion, so if I'm not entirely mistaken, premium stash tabs were already in the shop at that point. And I will admit, I still don't have a definite stance on stash tabs. I've played games before that were massively, though deceptively P2W. As such the notion of stash tabs being P2W seemed very ridiculous at the time. With the introduction of jewels and trading cards, and having tried my hand at shops and chaos/regal recipes, I'm not so sure about that anymore.

The difference with tabs as storage space is that you start with some and aren't immediately gated from anything. According to this thread some people still soldier on with four tabs and it took me a long time before I decided to buy more. And that process wasn't so much "I need more tabs", but "hey, I've played for quite some time now and I like the game, a few more stash tabs would be nice."

This might seem like a very slight difference, but it's in fact the principle. It's also not so much that this would cross a line that'd make me ragequit the game. GGG could ship premium trading the way it's presented here and would in my mind probably still have the best F2P model I know. However, it's a slippery slope.

To put that into perspective, I'm usually the guy who plays F2P without paying a dime and buys his games exclusively on sale. I've spent about $100 on PoE, which is substantial for me compared to other games. I'm at a point where I'm looking for reasons not to buy the low tier supporter packs instead of reasons to buy them. The reason for that is that traditional shops try to sell you shit you need. It's about more or less creative ways to get your money and it shows. Now I know that every studio is a business that has to pay the bills, but GGG does a damn good job not shoving that into your face. The stash tabs are a bit borderline, but otherwise everything in the shop screams "You can't buy any boni, because we appreciate you playing our game and we've already given you everything to do so. If you want to help us out, here are some cosmetic effects." To me, this makes the shop not about my money, but my relationship to the studio. And that is a huge deal. It's exemplary and I think it's a ballsy and utterly commendable move by GGG, that makes me want to voluntarily throw money at them to make them succeed, instead of feeling like I get milked with every purchase. Especially considering PoE is a damn fine game on top of that and the scope of every expansion and the interaction with the community are mindboggling.

And suddenly, monetary gated gameplay feature.

I should repeat what has been mentioned a few times in this thread: it's a first wave. A preview, basically. GGG is one of, if not the most consumer friendly developer, so I think it's just fair to sit back and wait for the full feature to be released before brandishing the pitchforks. However, it's all we have to discuss at the moment. And if trading were to be released tied to premium tabs, even if the state of 3rd party tools remained unchanged (which I wouldn't bet on), it would still be a feature of the game behind a paywall. To me that would be a crack in the otherwise flawless image I outlined above. I think many people feel similarly and are concerned about what that could mean for the future of the game.

So basically, you're right, the definition of "ethical" is the deciding point. But I think it's more than that. As I said, even with that feature as-is, GGG would still be pretty high on the F2P scale. They've also set the bar very high, though. And that high bar is part of the reason I, and I assume many others, have decided to support the company the way we do, in the first place.

I just bought 6 premium bundle for this new patch.

I think GGG more than earns their money but I really have a bad taste about how they are going about this.

for one it is going to keep mass adoption tempered and means less people trading.. the easier it is to do the more people will trade, we all win.

and two..

this clearly comes off very p2w, trading is a core part of this genre and adding the ability to trade easier behind a pay wall is just a bad idea.

great game. bad decision. life moves on

You have an option about stash tabs. Mule characters and second-third account.
GGG is ok with that.
For fast listing items you have no option. Buy premium stash tabs only.