Controlled Destruction gem - a huge design oversight?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The penalty should remain the same, but the bonus should be changed to "x% more Spell Damage on non-Critical Strike." Since crits deal x1.5 damage, a crit is still always technically better.

that could work.

Ive actually had an idea bouncing around for that stat on some kind of melee aura or support. % chance to deal an augmented hit of some kind on non critical strike. I was thinking some kind of more damage + aoe splash damage would be the effect, having a 40% chance on non crit or whatever. I think its an interesting thing generally speaking, % chance on non crit, theres a lot of good that can be done with that mechanic in various areas, skills, supports, auras, flasks, passives, jewels, items, almost everywhere tbh.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The penalty should remain the same, but the bonus should be changed to "x% more Spell Damage on non-Critical Strike." Since crits deal x1.5 damage, a crit is still always technically better.

that could work.

Well, kinda, except for its identity problem. Why the non-crit damage bonus? It would kinda obviously target builds with moderate crit chance in addition to non-crit builds, however there are two problems with that.
- For low crit builds losing 5-10% crit chance is significant.
- It would apply its bonus to lower part of dps, like this:

Let's say you do 100 dps non-crit, got 40% crit chance and 400% multi, that's 220dps altogether.
If you socket the gem you gain, say 50% more damage on non-crit and lose 8% crit chance, that's 245 total dps which is a 11% gain, not worth the slot I say.

Not really saying it wouldn't work as well as 'can't crit', there's just nothing to gain from it.

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raics wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The penalty should remain the same, but the bonus should be changed to "x% more Spell Damage on non-Critical Strike." Since crits deal x1.5 damage, a crit is still always technically better.

that could work.

Well, kinda, except for its identity problem. Why the non-crit damage bonus? It would kinda obviously target builds with moderate crit chance in addition to non-crit builds, however there are two problems with that.
- For low crit builds losing 5-10% crit chance is significant.
- It would apply its bonus to lower part of dps, like this:

Let's say you do 100 dps non-crit, got 40% crit chance and 400% multi, that's 220dps altogether.
If you socket the gem you gain, say 50% more damage on non-crit and lose 8% crit chance, that's 245 total dps which is a 11% gain, not worth the slot I say.

Not really saying it wouldn't work as well as 'can't crit', there's just nothing to gain from it.

I think your math is wrong, or at least poorly communicated. Final critical strike multiplier is 150%*(1+increases), so 400% increased crit multiplier yields a final crit multiplier of 750%, and 250% increased crit multiplier yields a final crit multiplier of 525%. You may be underestimating how powerful crit multiplier is, unless you meant "166% increased crit multiplier" in your example.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I think your math is wrong, or at least poorly communicated. Final critical strike multiplier is 150%*(1+increases), so 400% increased crit multiplier yields a final crit multiplier of 750%, and 250% increased crit multiplier yields a final crit multiplier of 525%. You may be underestimating how powerful crit multiplier is, unless you meant "166% increased crit multiplier" in your example.

Yeah, I listed final values, there are no increases mentioned anywhere. The thing about that 'extra damage on non-crits' gem is it works under its full potential in a special non-crit case, it has a mid-crit sweet spot where it's somewhat effective and it then drops off the further from the sweet spot you are. The trouble is they can't give it a high enough multiplier to make the sweet spot value competitive with other supports.

Well if you listed final values, then the situation you described is 100dps 60% of hits, and 400dps 40% of hits. That is very spikey. There are no spells with 8% crit chance so no idea where you're getting that from, so let's say 6% instead... with 45% more from Controlled Destruction (which I think should be max for gemlevel 21) you'd go to 145dps 66% of hits, 400 dps 34% of hits, total dps 231.7, only 5.3% more... yeah, not worth it.

But here's the thing I don't get...

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raics wrote:

I'd personally settle for nothing less than 100% less crit chance.

What I'm suggesting is even less of a nerf than what you're saying.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

But here's the thing I don't get...

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raics wrote:

I'd personally settle for nothing less than 100% less crit chance.

What I'm suggesting is even less of a nerf than what you're saying.

Of course it is, I already stated I'd like to give the gem a full anti-crit identity (though that sounds dangerously close to anti-christ :). Nothing personal, of course, but what you suggested was a very GGG-ish unnecessarily complicated (maybe even potentially misleading) half-measure, and, just between you, me and all other visitors to the thread, I'm getting more than a bit sick of those.

You know, there are times I'd just like them to be a bit less wishy-washy.
Brilliant Developer: Hey, why don't we implement a new non-crit gem?
Reluctant Developer: Good idea, but why not make it good for crit too?
George the Peacock: Because it wouldn't be a non-crit gem anymore, it would be just a gem.

Unfortunately, George remained in the old office so that last sentence never happened.

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raics wrote:

Agreed, that's exactly what I said on release - penalty is inconsequential and the support is actually better for crit builds than inc crit strikes/damage. I'd personally settle for nothing less than 100% less crit chance.

Yeah... I'd actually just change the crit-penalty to 'linked skills cannot crit' (thereby precluding the possibility of still having a 5% chance to crit by default, in the same way having 0 evasion still gives you a 5% chance to evade without an overriding factor).

But, I'd also expand it to work with attacks, but not DoTs and secondary damage (the latter simply because there is no actual tag for secondary damage, the former because DoTs can't ever crit anyway), as well as provide a chance to apply elemental status ailments on hit (10% for each, i figure). That ought to buff up RT attackers nicely by finally giving them a scaling route crit can't access (just like CD *should* be doing for spells already), and in general it'll help non-crit characters apply ailments, which is something they can't do nearly as reliably as crit.

I was actually just thinking that it could easily support noncrit Attacks too, without being OP at all.

I don't like the idea of Elemental status effects, though. There are already supports for that.

Intuitively the best solution in my mind would be 50% less critical strike chance. The punishment goes up the more crit chance you build.

Let's do some calculations to see how it works out.

Assuming 5% pre-gem crit chance, 0% multi increase (net 150% crit multi):
With new gem: 144% + (144% * 1.5 * .025) = 149.4% final DPS multi
Without new gem: 100% + (100% * 1.5 * 0.05) = 107.5% final DPS multi
Change: 149.4/107.5 = 138.977% = "39.0% more DPS" from gem

Assuming 20% pre-gem crit chance, 75% multi increase (net 262.5% crit multi):
With new gem: 144% + (144% * 2.625 * .1) = 181.8% final DPS multi
Without new gem: 100% + (100% * 2.625 * 0.2) = 152.5% final DPS multi
Change: 181.8/152.5 = 119.213% = "19.2% more DPS" from gem

Assuming 40% pre-gem crit chance, 150% multi increase (net 375% crit multi):
With new gem: 144% + (144% * 3.75 * .2) = 252% final DPS multi
Without new gem: 100% + (100% * 3.75 * 0.4) = 250% final DPS multi
Change: 252/250 = 100.8% = "0.8% more DPS" from gem

Eh? Eh? Whaddayaguys think?

EDIT: For comparison, here is the last one but with the current (old) gem and 5% base crit:
Assuming 40% pre-gem crit chance, 150% multi increase (net 375% crit multi):
With current gem: 144% + (144% * 3.75 * .35) = 333% final DPS multi
Without either gem: 100% + (100% * 3.75 * 0.4) = 250% final DPS multi
Change: 333/250 = 133.2% = "33.2% more DPS" from gem

Yup, i'm using it in my Crit Shockwave build, actually my crits go from 48% to 43% but the 44 more gives me a lot more damage, that 5% less crit it's nothing against the more damage received.

When my Carcass will ready i gonna switch Iron Will for Concentrated effect and goona increase my DPS from 40k to 55k (each totem), i'm killing everything at 40k but more damage it's always good.