poe.trade is cheating

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Mivo wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

GGG defines whats cheating, not you or I.

Your claim was that it wasn't cheating no matter how you look at it. I pointed out ways to look at it that make it cheating. Sure, ultimately GGG decide what's against the TOS, but we were discussing what cheating is, not what GGG deem punishable. I don't disagree that using poe.trade and those automated scripts and bots related to it are not against the TOS, but that doesn't really alter my take on these activities, because, as stated, they follow the exactly same principle that activities do that GGG do prohibit.

Using scripts and bots at poe.trade to automatically find under-priced offers, and really, the use of poe.trade itself, provides a critical advantage in a game that is centered around trading. It is sanctioned and nobody gets in trouble for it, but GGG do not get to define the meaning of words and actions, only their consequences.

Then how is utilizing the wiki any different?

Is it cheating? No. GGG defines what cheating is in the ToS, and this is not it.

Does the way GGG handles trading in general allow some players to have a HUGE advantage over others? Yes. It is unfortunate, but this is the state of the game right now.

Should third-party sites and programs be the main avenue of trading in a game? No, absolutely not.

Does GGG have the resources to create a perfect in-game trading system right now? Probably not, though they are no doubt working on it.



It's sad, but we're kinda stuck with the current system for the time being.

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goetzjam wrote:

Then how is utilizing the wiki any different?

It doesn't provide you with an advantage of a technical, automated nature. Those auto-potion things and the fully automated, HP-based logout macros (the stuff that is against the TOS) allow you to do something that you cannot possibly do as fast without them.

Same with scripts and bots that continuously scan poe.trade and notify you instantly of advantageous deals. I refer mostly to those means, and that particular activity, though it's the automation, which poe.trade itself provides by its very function, in general that makes it a form of cheating. The Wiki is just a collection of manually, by players collected and processed information. There is no automation on a technical level.

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Mivo wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Then how is utilizing the wiki any different?

It doesn't provide you with an advantage of a technical, automated nature. Those auto-potion things and the fully automated, HP-based logout macros (the stuff that is against the TOS) allow you to do something that you cannot possibly do as fast without them.

Same with scripts and bots that continuously scan poe.trade and notify you instantly of advantageous deals. I refer mostly to those means, and that particular activity, though it's the automation, which poe.trade itself provides by its very function, in general that makes it a form of cheating. The Wiki is just a collection of manually, by players collected and processed information. There is no automation on a technical level.

Poe.trade doesn't do anything automatically, you input the things you want to search for it and find it based off of what you input. Look at poe.trade as nothing but a "collection" of listed items on the forums.


Its all about perspective I suppose, although when you use the excuse of "advantage" anything can be considered cheating if I'm gaining an advantage by using it and you aren't. Thats why inherently the "advantage = cheating" argument is flawed.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Mivo wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Then how is utilizing the wiki any different?

It doesn't provide you with an advantage of a technical, automated nature. Those auto-potion things and the fully automated, HP-based logout macros (the stuff that is against the TOS) allow you to do something that you cannot possibly do as fast without them.

Same with scripts and bots that continuously scan poe.trade and notify you instantly of advantageous deals. I refer mostly to those means, and that particular activity, though it's the automation, which poe.trade itself provides by its very function, in general that makes it a form of cheating. The Wiki is just a collection of manually, by players collected and processed information. There is no automation on a technical level.

Poe.trade doesn't do anything automatically, you input the things you want to search for it and find it based off of what you input. Look at poe.trade as nothing but a "collection" of listed items on the forums.


Its all about perspective I suppose, although when you use the excuse of "advantage" anything can be considered cheating if I'm gaining an advantage by using it and you aren't. Thats why inherently the "advantage = cheating" argument is flawed.

Mivo is talking about programs that do the "searching" that PoE XyZ offers automatically without player input other then specific limits (b/o price = X item = X) and then forwards and alerts the person behind that automated program when such an item becomes available.

Now tell me, is that not replacing a presumably human activity with an automated script that offers
real-in-game advantages over others?

This is even more pronounced by people actually having the hardware to do this at a high competitive level, which enters the realm of P2W to even participate in this high-end trade functionality.
(hardware to run the same automated programs but simply faster, thus intercepting other players with lack of this hardware)

From my understanding, XyZ scouts the forums every 30 min or so for updates. There are personal indexers that do it a lot faster and thus have a "one-up" on every person utilizing XyZ for it's main trade source.

don't think i have to give a story on how wealth snow-balls in this game early on etc... i reckon your smart enough to logically know this.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

Mivo is talking about programs that do the "searching" that PoE XyZ offers automatically without player input other then specific limits (b/o price = X item = X) and then forwards and alerts the person behind that automated program when such an item becomes available.

Now tell me, is that not replacing a presumably human activity with an automated script that offers
real-in-game advantages over others?

This is even more pronounced by people actually having the hardware to do this at a high competitive level, which enters the realm of P2W to even participate in this high-end trade functionality.
(hardware to run the same automated programs but simply faster, thus intercepting other players with lack of this hardware)

From my understanding, XyZ scouts the forums every 30 min or so for updates. There are personal indexers that do it a lot faster and thus have a "one-up" on every person utilizing XyZ for it's main trade source.

don't think i have to give a story on how wealth snow-balls in this game early on etc... i reckon your smart enough to logically know this.

Peace,

-Boem-

Those bots and other automated things don't have to or even should use poe.trade to get the information. That is simply my point.

It absolutely does give you an advantage of using outside scripts to search things, I or anyone else cannot deny that, but the fact of the matter is you can't define anything that gives you an advantage ESPECIALLY outside of the game as "cheating"

In terms of P2W, not sure where your trying to go with that. P2W is defined as a term as the company directly supporting and profiting from selling increased power in the game, either weapons, respecs, whatever have you inside the game.

In terms of pay for an advantage, I guess people are exchanging real money to gain access to these bots? IMO thats news to me, but I guess its to be expected.

In terms of wealth building and overall market sniping, I guess yes it means your less likely to find a soultaker for 1ex on poe.trade or make a bunch of money by grabbing up all of a specific item, unless of course you utilize one of these bots. In terms of the discussion here and now, especially OP's title, poe.trade isn't cheating. The automated bots by definition of what GGG has laid out isn't either, as it isn't\doesn't interact with the game to give you a direct advantage there. It is against the spirit and main ideals of the game, but again it isn't cheating in the sense that people can\should get banned for using them.

I'm using the therm P2W as the player paying real money for an in-game advantage, which is what happens if you buy the hardware to allow your bot to run 24/7 and more efficiently then other bot users or in a macro scale the player-base itself.

As in actually "paying 2 win".

Which is against the ToS i imagine, somewhere.

The problem is that trading is not embedded in the game, but at the edge of it. Thus it's in a grey area and can be abused as pleased without infringing on the ToS guide-lines.

Point being that people are paying to win, just not directly in-game but rather at it's edge, which in return is sanctioned by GGG.

I was merely explaining where Mivo is coming from, not addressing the OP.

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goetzjam wrote:

The automated bots by definition of what GGG has laid out isn't either, as it isn't\doesn't interact with the game to give you a direct advantage there

This is grin-worthy though. Obviously more access to wealth gives you a direct advantage in-game. They do interact with the game, with it's market, which like i mentioned is on the edge of the game.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit :

This makes the quote from Chris "the economy is the most important thing to us" laughable btw.

Since it's being abused the most and extremely prone to it because of any lack of sanctioned regulation.

Can you site the source of that quote:

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This makes the quote from Chris "the economy is the most important thing to us" laughable btw.

I somewhat agree with your view but utilizing terms "improperly" can cause confusions, even though we may agree in the same end results.




Following the whole bot searching this or doing that. Players that can spend more time playing either because they have parents that support them or somehow make enough off of streaming to not have to have full time employment can be defined as the same. They have the ability to refresh certain things and under certain circumstances can single handily manipulate the market of key unique items and such. To me its kinda funny people complain about market manipulation recently and now all the sudden bots, when since the begging of time streamers have been able to and actually play a larger part in the price of unique items especially. That is without spending any money, just time. But time is money so idk....

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This is grin-worthy though. Obviously more access to wealth gives you a direct advantage in-game. They do interact with the game, with it's market, which like i mentioned is on the edge of the game.

I mean the actual client, yes the economy is part of the game, but searching for listings on the forums and such with scripts is allowed, otherwise poe.trade wouldn't even exists in the first place. I suppose if the current system was completely integrated into the game such tools would be against the ToS because they interact directly with the client at that point.

I don't think it's cheating, it's a good platform to facilitate trading.

and while we are talking about trading, for me I would really like GGG to make something similar to POEtrade but in game, and maybe accessible with the site or forum. THAT would be the best way to make trading even funnier.

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goetzjam wrote:

Can you site the source of that quote:

First line, i assume this counts as a quote of chris, or the company's vision as a whole non-the-less.

It's all pretty stupid.

"Don't bot in the game, but here have this wealth gaining method at it's edge that you can Bot at free will"

Ok.

Peace,

-Boem-