Why is a better way to trade that difficult?

"

goetzjam wrote:

Its a cool idea in concept, however I have some concerns.

Having another selling stash removes part of what people have already invested into. Do we get to reallocate more space for selling or how is that determined?

In terms of finding the item, how exactly is a person to know to go to my hideout because I have an item they are looking for?

In terms of players not willing to take a few minutes to complete a sale, I think this is a key part that keeps a balanced check on trading. I've mentioned many times I don't have anything listed under a chaos (actually this league nothing under 2 chaos) because I can't be bothered to interrupt my gameplay for anything less.


In terms of a web based system, i don't like it. It opens up too many ways for bots and automation with scrips\ect. It also could open up issues if it were to co-exists with the current systems with those tools potentially having access to more then just posting on your behalf.

Trading thru a web interface should be a mail box system only and really should be very limited to keep it from just being automated system replacing trading altogether.



In terms of interacting with a stash, I like it, in terms of automation, I don't. However, I think if implemented properly could help address some concerns people have with trade, but I still have to ask why the hell people think trading is so bad when almost any item in the game is under 10ex in temp leagues. A few more niche uniques are more.

Or like 30ex skyforth that are probably BIS for every crit build. Gloves atziris/ boots Skyforth. What future brings?

"

vio wrote:

chris on trading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmKcEkzSo0k

forward to 23:20 min

Just watched. Sorry about misrepresenting things in my previous post--I was mistaken.

"

bwam wrote:

"

vio wrote:

chris on trading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmKcEkzSo0k

forward to 23:20 min

Just watched. Sorry about misrepresenting things in my previous post--I was mistaken.

if i got weird ideas i just post them and hope other players get ideas to improve them ;)

Sounds like bot heaven to me. Bots will be made to scan hideouts 24/7 looking for steals since you set B/O price and go in and buy them. No human interaction needed.

http://diablo3story.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/a-diablo-3-story.html

"

eragon1111 wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

In terms of interacting with a stash, I like it, in terms of automation, I don't. However, I think if implemented properly could help address some concerns people have with trade, but I still have to ask why the hell people think trading is so bad when almost any item in the game is under 10ex in temp leagues. A few more niche uniques are more.

Or like 30ex skyforth that are probably BIS for every crit build. Gloves atziris/ boots Skyforth. What future brings?

Let me just point out I did say A FEW MORE NICHE UNIQUES ARE MORE. Neither one of the ones you mentioned are necessary for the builds to function, they simply provide either a better version of something or give you overall increased power. Regardless builds function without those items.

As for future brings, idk its like theres divination cards for the atziri gloves already, who knows what else can be added.

"

eragon1111 wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

In terms of interacting with a stash, I like it, in terms of automation, I don't. However, I think if implemented properly could help address some concerns people have with trade, but I still have to ask why the hell people think trading is so bad when almost any item in the game is under 10ex in temp leagues. A few more niche uniques are more.

Or like 30ex skyforth that are probably BIS for every crit build. Gloves atziris/ boots Skyforth. What future brings?

Let me just point out I did say A FEW MORE NICHE UNIQUES ARE MORE. Neither one of the ones you mentioned are necessary for the builds to function, they simply provide either a better version of something or give you overall increased power. Regardless builds function without those items.

As for future brings, idk its like theres divination cards for the atziri gloves already, who knows what else can be added.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

eragon1111 wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

In terms of interacting with a stash, I like it, in terms of automation, I don't. However, I think if implemented properly could help address some concerns people have with trade, but I still have to ask why the hell people think trading is so bad when almost any item in the game is under 10ex in temp leagues. A few more niche uniques are more.

Or like 30ex skyforth that are probably BIS for every crit build. Gloves atziris/ boots Skyforth. What future brings?

Let me just point out I did say A FEW MORE NICHE UNIQUES ARE MORE. Neither one of the ones you mentioned are necessary for the builds to function, they simply provide either a better version of something or give you overall increased power. Regardless builds function without those items.

As for future brings, idk its like theres divination cards for the atziri gloves already, who knows what else can be added.

400 PDPS Harbingers go for alot more then 10 exalts on Talisman HC and good 6 Links go for more than 10.


This whole emphasis on trade/hardcore/etc. is the single reason why the RMT economy is thriving and why botting, maphacking, and other sorts of things are quite popular among many top players.


And if you don't think cheating among top players isn't prevalent, well, do realize that there's a reason why some people didn't stream when they were competing for prizes.

"

mark1030 wrote:

"Why is a better way to trade that difficult?"

My question would be "Why is the current way to trade that difficult for some players?" With GGG encouraged third party tools like poe.trade and Acqusition/Procurement, trading is "not that difficult". In fact, it's pretty darn easy.

poe.trade is an excellent trade system that I can successfully use to buy an upgrade every time I use it.

The problem is not with poe.trade, but with the /wink /wink nature of it. Not all players know about it. The only players that know about it are the types of player who read forums, and research games. Many players will never visit the homepage, or can't read the forum's language.

This creates 2 distinct castes in this game.

1. players who know about poe.trade
2. players who do not know about poe.trade

Where the former has a **significant** advantage over the latter.

Unless GGG is going to add a loading screen message like

"The official Auction House can be located at poe.trade"

Any of the the following phrases would be acceptable.
Trade House
Bazaar House
Exchange House

The Developers inaction on this major imbalance, leads to customer frustrations and countless lapsed accounts.

"

WARPAINTER wrote:

Spoiler

I really like the idea Arrowneous and I think it would improve the quality of trading 100 fold. It really bugs me when I use PoE.trade to find something to buy and the player is never online (maybe we're in different timezones... what do I have to pull an all nighter just to buy some gear? Bugger that!).

So here's how I see trade moving forward - Bugger I have to leave to work soon, so I'll be quick - Trade NPC's in every Wraeclast camp/town. These NPC's open up a PoE.Trade type system allowing you to look up wares in a very specific way. Once you find something that is perfect with a B/O price then you hit a button to visit that players H/O. Each player can have a trade NPC in their H/O that links to Trade tabs in their stash (opportunity here for GGG to have Trade NPC real money cosmetics and what not... also could cover cost of system by making trade stashes something players have to buy to get [maybe they start with 1 or 2 only]). Anyway after the player goes to Trade NPC in players H/O and finds item they want to buy the Trade NPC asks them to solve a wooden puzzle (captcha to prevent Bots but implemented in a nice, thematic way) saying that corrupted agents of Malachai don't have the wisdom required to complete the puzzle and so would never obtain these powerful wares.

Something like that that is deliciously instant and very, very difficult for a bot programmer to exploit. It's just a matter of patience... hope to see it in the future. Thanks for posting Arrowneous +1

This is the winning design.

I would add a small in-game cost based upon total number of items listed; and the ability to see our friends full listing.

Anyone who played Star Wars Galaxies, know what life this could breath into Hideouts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxies


"if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

Sounds like bot heaven to me. Bots will be made to scan hideouts 24/7 looking for steals since you set B/O price and go in and buy them. No human interaction needed.

http://diablo3story.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/a-diablo-3-story.html

Path of Exile is currently more heavily RMT'd then Diablo 3 is. D3 Bot indexers is old news. RMAH was botted by indexers because they could make money quickly; in Path of Exile, it's far different when you have 21 different currencies. Botters today even struggle to buy items they want because sometimes they could bot for weeks and still not get the currency they want (Exalts because they are so ridiculously rare) so they have to actually get on and trade whatever orbs they have for Exalts.

Basically all these decisions are made because of the trade heavy focus of the game, and the fact that Chris knows bots exist. He doesn't want to admit it, but the fact of the matter is pretty much every economic decision (along with plenty of stealth changes) is made because of bots/cheaters. Remember arcanist and cartogropher boxes? They made bunches of changes to those along with stealth changes to nerf them because of botters being able to see them within the preloaded memory. Same with the docks farming method for sacrifice shards. All of this because GGG thinks a trade heavy focus on the game is a good idea for whatever silly reason.

There is a reason why various MMOs have gone away from a trade heavy focus on the economy. Even Eve Online which has a very complex economic system has now gone down the path of focusing more on the enjoyment of the player rather than maintaining the integrity of the economy. Why? Because of the presence of people who cheat, as in a trade focused/cutthroat type of game, cheating gains you HUGE advantages. You'll see tons of people cheating in games like DayZ, Rust, Ark Survival Evolved, Eve Online, CS:GO, etc. because you can gain huge and notable advantages. There are two ways to deter this; either one, you make it hard as shit to cheat. This takes substantial amounts of resources which GGG doesn't have, and honestly is a huge pain in the ass to deal with. Even with a game like Ark Survival Evolved that update constantly are unable to get rid of cheaters, and they work hard as shit to do it.

The second option is merely to design your game that isn't conducive to cheating. Right now, Path of Exile is extremely conducive to cheating in all sorts of manners. It's far too easy to cheat without getting caught, even with the presence of an anti-cheating program. RMTing is easy to do, and rampant among many of the top 100 players, particularly in HC where players can get far more money. Botting is prevalent, and hard to catch, especially when the players are smart and use all sorts of manners to evade. Even if they do get banned, it's very easy to circumvent bans if you're somewhat savy with computers (change network card, hardware ids, VPNs, etc.) And if you think cheating isn't prevalent, I guess no one saw how many top players were banned on the first day of the Awakening expansion in HC alone, let alone in SC.

"

400 PDPS Harbingers go for alot more then 10 exalts on Talisman HC and good 6 Links go for more than 10.


This whole emphasis on trade/hardcore/etc. is the single reason why the RMT economy is thriving and why botting, maphacking, and other sorts of things are quite popular among many top players.


And if you don't think cheating among top players isn't prevalent, well, do realize that there's a reason why some people didn't stream when they were competing for prizes.

What the hell does crit bows have to do with anything, good rolled bows have always been expensive, in terms of more then 10ex for a good rolled 6 link, you can just buy the high ilevel cards and craft a bow if you want. Regardless thats 1 weapon type, among the many different playstyles in PoE that seems to be "expensive". I don't think people that have issues with trading are looking at making a build that requires that much wealth.

The whole reason of making the game the way it is wasn't to appeal to the masses, it was to appeal to a more niche market and playerbase. In terms of RMT, its been there since day 1 of open beta, especially for people that play in the perm leagues, because money invested then nets better items to play with. In terms of maphacking, they have made improvements to that and almost all races now are revealed\fixed to make that less of an issue. In terms of botting, they do get banned from time to time, its something that GGG can only attempt to really combat, but its a F2P game so anyone can create accounts to try and bot with. "other sort of things"

I don't understand your fascination with RMT in a game like this, it happens across the board for any game that requires grind, someone's real life time is always worth more then money it takes to simply bypass the time and play the powerful builds.

Cheating\RMT is going to happen in any game like this, GGG can only combat it with whatever steps they putforth, they however cannot stop it completely without removing key elements of the game. If there was no trading at all and everything was account bound like in D3, then RMT in terms of items wouldn't be an issue, however even then people STILL botted and likely still do in D3 simply to grind rifts for keys or XP. Unless your suggesting that PoE move to an account bound style loot system, which I don't think you are I don't understand your points here.

In terms of people not streaming when going for things, when 2.0 hit and GGG had a prize for first merciless malachai kill, the guy that won in HC was streaming.

In terms of ladder\cheating, what does this ultimately have to do with trading in PoE, as far as I'm concerned it has a relatively low effect on my gameplay and builds, currently and in the past, perhaps you can go into more detail on how its relevant to this discussion and less about ranting that others, cheating or not have more then you do.