Donald Trump

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NeroNoah wrote:

And don't come with PC, that's just poisoning the well.

" News of the legal purchases comes as officials confirmed that Mateen had been interviewed three times by the FBI in the years leading up to the shooting because his name came up in connection to two different cases. Such information would not show up in a background check because both cases were closed.

Law enforcement sources confirmed that Mateen was on the FBI's radar but not necessarily on a watch list. But even appearing on the list wouldn't have necessarily prevented him from obtaining weapons.

"Being on the watch list is not in itself disqualifying, under law. The disqualifying elements of the investigation may be classified," ABC News consultant and former acting Homeland Security undersecretary John Cohen said. "

PC was the cause of this - this particular event was entire preventable.

Oops - forgot the source:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/orlando-shooter-bought-guns-previous-flags-fbi/story?id=39799861

If anyone is reading this who knows someone seriously affected by this horror, please have them look into EMDR therapy when they are ready for it. They may always remember the horror, but their lives and those around them don't need to be permanently destroyed. It's not a complete solution (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy will probably also be needed) but it has been proven to be effective, and it could prevent some future suicides that will otherwise come out of this.

http://www.emdr.com/what-is-emdr/

with what happened recently, the attack that caused the death of over 50 people I think we should block Muslims at our border just like Trump suggested. Let's be honest, it's becoming a monthly thing now. There's more and more terrorists attacks.

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DalaiLama wrote:

The law isn't silly or stupid. The law is based on the idea that there are a limited amount of resources. Take out a coffee cup, Now pour five liters of coffee into it. **That's the problem** the law exists to solve. It isn't a problem of ethnicity or origin, but a problem of capacity.

Well, I thought free market could manage problems of scarcity. And that trade is not zero sum. Or so I have been told half million times. What are the market failures you think that would affect that in particular? What's US capacity?

Again, it would be nice to read what economists actually said. There is one post here that adresses that stuff in the immigration part. Tell me your opinion.

Also, if current laws are enough if enforced, why the wall in first place? It's a stupid ammount of money, and Mexico is not going to pay for it. Starting a trade war for that seems stupid. I think Trump is a moron just for overpromising.

And redtaping is dishonest no matter how you cut it. A "sorry there is no space" would make more sense than overpriced ticket lotteries even for job tied immigration, if what I have read is true.

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DalaiLama wrote:

PC was the cause of this - this particular event was entire preventable.

So are your gun laws PC? Interesting.

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diablofdb wrote:

with what happened recently, the attack that caused the death of over 50 people I think we should block Muslims at our border just like Trump suggested. Let's be honest, it's becoming a monthly thing now. There's more and more terrorists attacks.

What would you do with muslim americans?

PS: http://imgur.com/a/ehxyl

LOL

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NeroNoah wrote:

Well, I thought free market could manage problems of scarcity. And that trade is not zero sum. Or so I have been told half million times. What are the market failures you think that would affect that in particular? What's US capacity?

Again, it would be nice to read what economists actually said. There is one post here that adresses that stuff in the immigration part. Tell me your opinion.

Going through all this would take a few full length posts (think the limit is around 35 pages of single line text). Will save that discussion for another time. Capacity is simple though - grab any container and begin pouring liquid in. Now take any other measure and any other substance. X jobs, Y workers. X VW bugs, Y college students.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Also, if current laws are enough if enforced,

They aren't. States are and have sued the Federal government for not enforcing them, and the federal government has used specific judges to get rulings that they can do whatever they want, and that the states aren't allowed to enforce them.

Imagine if a teacher was set on fire in your nation because the student got a failing grade. The police arrested him, but when they tried to prosecute, the national government stepped in and said, Sorry, but this man is Elbonian, and the current leader likes them, so we have to let him go free."

That's what we are facing.

One of the companies I've worked for had an employee stabbed by an illegal alien from Honduras. The attacker was subdued and held until the local police arrived. They handed him over to ICE (federal). ICE released him within a few hours with no charges (they claimed they knew who he was, that he was illegal and his name, but they couldn't be bothered with the processing. When a company director called them on it, they said they couldn't find him. The company threatened to go public (they can afford Superbowl ads,so this wasn't an idle threat) with what was happening, and all of a sudden ICE could find the guy and get him deported.

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NeroNoah wrote:

why the wall in first place? It's a stupid ammount of money, and Mexico is not going to pay for it.

If you've listened to Trump's plan, you'd know that not only would they pay for it, but the US would end up making a profit off of the way Mexico paid for it.

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NeroNoah wrote:

So are your gun laws PC? Interesting.

Enforcement of them is most definitely PC. A lot of other laws and administrative rulings are based of of PC decisions. The chief of the IRS will lose his job because of this, and if they can dig up evidence, he and those involved will get prison time.

They will need a special jail just to house all the crooks in this administration. It's sad and disgusting.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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diablofdb wrote:

with what happened recently, the attack that caused the death of over 50 people I think we should block Muslims at our border just like Trump suggested. Let's be honest, it's becoming a monthly thing now. There's more and more terrorists attacks.

What would you do with muslim americans?

They have watch lists already. IIRC, all of the attacks have been by people who were already on their watch list. They could start by interviewing these people and determining whether they are actually a threat, or can be taken off the watch list. If someone on the watch lists buys some weapons, I would be sending someone over to their house to see what is going on.

If the guy is on the watch list, and he is being recruited, then there's a certain amount of chatter/contact with his supporters/idols whatever you want to term that relationship. That contact is going to typically going to show a big increase then a big decrease in frequency and volume. The quiet period is a time to send some agents over and see what is going on.

This is fieldcraft 101 - they knew this kind of stuff back when radio and landline phones were the primary methods of contact. A poodle could be trained to watch a screen for these kinds of changes and bark when someone on the watch list has exceeded the warning thresh hold. Yes, I know poodles (full size anyway) are smart dogs. I wish I could say the same about our leaders.

Consider this - these lone wolfs typically don't have a bunch of training in being deceptive when being interviewed. A good investigator could sniff out when someone was lying and they could get warrants and dig in.

This is all basic stuff.

The only reason it isn't happening, is because our current administration doesn't want it to. They could pick up the phone and say three or four words and start the process.

They won't though. If it isn' going to get them more votes, they don't really care.

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DalaiLama wrote:

Going through all this would take a few full length posts (think the limit is around 35 pages of single line text). Will save that discussion for another time. Capacity is simple though - grab any container and begin pouring liquid in. Now take any other measure and any other substance. X jobs, Y workers. X VW bugs, Y college students.

It could be very well space for 1 billion people. Also, there are feedback mechanisms in place (sigh...the free market). I'm open to changing my mind (and also I could talk about ways I think immigration should be restricted, like job tying, as I said, I'm no open border proponent), but that's just handwaving.

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DalaiLama wrote:

If you've listened to Trump's plan, you'd know that not only would they pay for it, but the US would end up making a profit off of the way Mexico paid for it.

I'm aware, and it's just magical thinking, and I can think a few scenarios where the world makes it impossible just because of the precedents it would set if it happened. You are probably aware pretty much no one likes Trump outside the US (except some fringe groups in Europe).

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DalaiLama wrote:

The only reason it isn't happening, is because our current administration doesn't want it to. They could pick up the phone and say three or four words and start the process.

They won't though. If it isn' going to get them more votes, they don't really care.

Hanlon's razor? I mean, following the story, it seems the alternative is a clusterfuck like the no fly list thing.

Just dropping by to say

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diablofdb wrote:

with what happened recently, the attack that caused the death of over 50 people I think we should block Muslims at our border just like Trump suggested. Let's be honest, it's becoming a monthly thing now. There's more and more terrorists attacks.

So how many people were killed in the U.S. by "Christians" ?

There are (many) normal, peaceful people and (some) extremists among all "religious" / "political" groups. That´s where we should draw the red line. E.g. Homophobia is as useful as Islamophobia.

Punish the criminals, as for all the others: live and let live. General suspicion and collective punishment makes things much worse. Unfortunately we might see that in the years to come, Trump is representing this, expect more attacks then.

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Schmodderhengst wrote:

General suspicion and collective punishment makes things much worse.

You mean "general suspicion" like laws from backward islamic countries, where homosexuals are killed and women treated like 2nd class citizens BY STATE LAW.

Yeah, import more of that "culture" into the West, let's pour millions unchecked "migrants" in, what could go wrong?

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morbo wrote:

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Schmodderhengst wrote:

General suspicion and collective punishment makes things much worse.

You mean "general suspicion" like laws from backward islamic countries, where homosexuals are killed and women treated like 2nd class citizens BY STATE LAW.

For example (I have mentioned Saudi Arabia long time ago in this thread, also my concerns about the developments in Turkey). Trump is saying he wants to exclude groups for ethnic or religious reasons. So this man respects homosexuals and women ? Sure.

We should not be "backward".

The whole "islamic terrosism" phenomenon started happening after the west started meddling in the middle east. It is a new form of colonialism. A few hundred westerners and thousands of islamist being killed every year is a small price to pay for the control of natural resources as it seems. Terrorism exists in this form because these people have no other ways of reacting(no i am not a sympathiser, i hate violence in all forms). Saying that Obama and other presidents ignore the issue is naive. With Guadanamo, drone strikes and all the wars there are what? Hundred of thousands, propably over a million of innocent civilians killed, imprisoned and tortured.

Remember, in the 70s in Iran women could just walk in the streets wearing mini skirts. Also the US had historically backed muslim extremist organisations.

With Trump's way of just "bombing the shit" out of them US will achieve nothing. It will only turn a bigger portion of the population against the West and things will only get worse. You cannot really stop somebody who does not care if he dies.

Countries in the middle East were generally backwards socially and culturaly, but were in a much better spot until the 70s, and the constant war and aggression in the area for the control of their resources have only pushed them back.

Islam is not the issue. If anything it is far more progressive than the old testament. Social structures are the issue.