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Tereng wrote:
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Legatus1982 wrote:
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Tereng wrote:
Legatus1982,
Added chaos damage looks like a good support gem, as it will add flat chaos damage which will be scaled with all the chaos damage nodes on tree. Which should be a good dps boost. However, we should keep in mind that viper strike is DOT skill. Yeah sure it does really good first hit damage, but in long boss fights, its the DOT that makes viper strike shine. As per the wiki link
The chaos damage will not be added to damage that is not part of a "hit", such as the Bleeding caused by Puncture, or the Chaos Damage per second from being Poisoned by Poison Arrow or Viper Strike.
So, none of the boost we are getting from added chaos damage will contribute to the DOT damage. IMO void manipulation, rapid decay or increased critical damage are better support gems for viper strike.
You're wrong about that. Read what the wiki says about poison. It is based on all physical and chaos damage dealt during any hit. Physical and chaos.
In fact void manipulation is EXTRA great with the added chaos gem BECAUSE it DOUBLE DIPS on the extra chaos damage applied from the added chaos gem.
Rapid decay, on the other hand, buffs nothing BUT ONLY THE DOT. It's probably the least effective way to buff your VS damage out of all the support gems.
So your optimal setup for VS should look something like:
Viper Strike - added chaos - void manipulation - poison - multistrike - faster attacks/crit strikes/crit damage, with a fast hitting weapon and appropriately leveled gems. And the necessary nodes in the tree, naturally. Of course poison I'm not too sure about - melee phys might win over that...possibly...hard to say. Math gets really confusing on the poison gem.
As to which of these gems you would prioritize as your 6th link... I have no idea. It would depend greatly on your tree, I think. The only thing I can say for certain is that rapid decay isn't very good, and added chaos + void manipulation is an AMAZING combo.
More testing or math is needed though, it's greatly confusing right now. You may still end up right about the gems, but the workings of it tells me you won't be. We really need some actual mathing out of the gem. Maybe if I can get some free time I'll do it this weekend.
What I wrote about DOT not benefiting from added chaos damage is from wiki page. Please check the below link:
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Added_Chaos_Damage
This is the second paragraph from wiki:
The chaos damage will not be added to damage that is not part of a "hit", such as the Bleeding caused by Puncture, or the Chaos Damage per second from being Poisoned by Poison Arrow or Viper Strike. The chaos damage will however be added to the weapon hits from Puncture, Poison Arrow, Viper Strike, and any other skill that hits.
You go with the most recent wiki in the case of conflicts. Added chaos wiki hasn't been changed and is referring to the old vs where it didn't apply "poison", but rather it's own gem effect. Now it applies poison, and the informative on poison is right there in the same wiki.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
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Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
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Posted byLegatus1982#1658on Dec 18, 2015, 7:34:05 AM
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KingSeagoe wrote:
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Tereng wrote:
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Legatus1982 wrote:
You're wrong about that. Read what the wiki says about poison. It is based on all physical and chaos damage dealt during any hit. Physical and chaos.
In fact void manipulation is EXTRA great with the added chaos gem BECAUSE it DOUBLE DIPS on the extra chaos damage applied from the added chaos gem.
Rapid decay, on the other hand, buffs nothing BUT ONLY THE DOT. It's probably the least effective way to buff your VS damage out of all the support gems.
So your optimal setup for VS should look something like:
Viper Strike - added chaos - void manipulation - poison - multistrike - faster attacks/crit strikes/crit damage, with a fast hitting weapon and appropriately leveled gems. And the necessary nodes in the tree, naturally. Of course poison I'm not too sure about - melee phys might win over that...possibly...hard to say. Math gets really confusing on the poison gem.
As to which of these gems you would prioritize as your 6th link... I have no idea. It would depend greatly on your tree, I think. The only thing I can say for certain is that rapid decay isn't very good, and added chaos + void manipulation is an AMAZING combo.
More testing or math is needed though, it's greatly confusing right now. You may still end up right about the gems, but the workings of it tells me you won't be. We really need some actual mathing out of the gem. Maybe if I can get some free time I'll do it this weekend.
What I wrote about DOT not benefiting from added chaos damage is from wiki page. Please check the below link:
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Added_Chaos_Damage
This is the second paragraph from wiki:
The chaos damage will not be added to damage that is not part of a "hit", such as the Bleeding caused by Puncture, or the Chaos Damage per second from being Poisoned by Poison Arrow or Viper Strike. The chaos damage will however be added to the weapon hits from Puncture, Poison Arrow, Viper Strike, and any other skill that hits.
Rapid decay is an amazing support gem, its add 38% MORE damage over time which is huge at lvl 19/20, for bosses like uber atziri split phase when u only have just a sec to stack poison and attack with viper tell u have to dodge what she throws at you, this is the gem that's gonna win the fight for you, ya it doesn't add to clear speed or make tooltip dps higher, but viper strike Is single target, not meant for anything else, u can try with splash or w/e but its only gonna be so good. and void manipulation only works well if you already do ele damage correct? im not familiar with this gem but I don't stack wed whats so ever so I don't see how void manipulation would do anything for me. search Kingshaunter's viper striker
Rapid decay is THE WORST gem you can apply to vs. Almost every other gem you support vs with will increase the initial hit which will then be DOUBLED (roughly) by the poison effect applied after. Rapid decay is good to buff the dot damage, but does nothing to the initial hit and actually DECREASES the damage by 15% with that duration modifier. Void manipulation achieves a similar effect, but at least with added chaos it double dips. And void manipulation has no drawback attached to it in regards to viper strike.
Now if you've got a ton of duration and chaos in your tree? Then sure, the more multiplier might win (or it might still not, hard to say) and the duration loss will be less noticeable. But again it depends entirely on your tree and gem setup.
Think about it this way. Melee phys buffs the initial hit by 30%, and added duration will increase the total dot damage by about the same. So why doesn't anyone use added duration?
Answer: because added duration only buffs the dot.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
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Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on Dec 18, 2015, 7:49:43 AM
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Posted byLegatus1982#1658on Dec 18, 2015, 7:41:58 AM
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Legatus1982,
I haven't found any place in the wiki that mentions that added chaos damage buff is added to DOT damage. Could you post the link here, and the part of the description that says it is added to DOT buff. Without proper information we can't conclude if added chaos is better.
Now, I am not sure why you said rapid decay decreases damage by 15%. It reduces the duration by 15%, viper strike base DOT duration is 8 seconds, so that duration will be reduced by 15%, which can be easily countered by the passives such as dirty techniques. Also, imo rapid decay is really good, since it is more multiplier to complete DOT damage not just chaos part.
Also, I didn't understand comparison you made b/w increased duration and melee phy dmg. Increased duration will not increase the DOT dmg only the time duration the DOT stays on. The time with viper strike is anyways pretty good, 8 seconds, this is the reason increased duration is not used.
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Posted byTereng#1784on Dec 18, 2015, 9:19:52 AM
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MiziWheelie wrote:
Tereng,
I think that what Legatus1982 is saying, that the added chaos does effect Viper Strike's DOT by scaling the initial hit.
As per the wiki the initial hit scaled by added chaos dmg is not added to the DOT. Please check out the added chaos damage wiki page.
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Posted byTereng#1784on Dec 18, 2015, 9:22:57 AM
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KingSeagoe wrote:
Hey man, there so many things I would like to say to help your viper build out man. I think you should just check out my thread brotha search "kingshaunter" on forums. spec is viper strike but I use reave for aoe and just swap in viper strike for boss fights, unless your okay with that kinda clear speed go ahead and use splash with viper but the skill isn't really meant to be used like that. and if your CI how come you don't have melee phys damage on full life? that's like the most important one yo, I would die to use that gem in my setup but my build is life based. added fire isn't the best choice to use either, need to work on stacking physical and physical only, I no there only so many other gems u can use. I recommend getting more jewel slots, u pass up ones that cost only 2 passives to get, and frenzy charges aren't what I recommend to stack now that bloodrage only gives 25% chance to gain charge, with frenzy skill then fucken a stack frenzy but I think theres better option. anyways hopefully my viper striker thread can help you with an idea or 2, my thread is end game thread but u can get a good idea. and Bino's is more than enough to kick ass with right gem setup and gear. good luck to ya friend.
Hi KingSeagoe,
Thanks for your helpful inputs, I checked your thread and it looks pretty amazing. It surely is a good end game build. However, the build that I am following here is based on buffs VS and melee splash received with talisman. I know that reave is an amazing aoe skill but I wanted to give VS a go with the changes GGG came up with melee splash and see how it performs end game (for both aoe and single target). So far the clear speed is decent and it is improving with each melee splash lvl and with q20 gem should get further better.
I am following life based build, for CI definitely I would use phys damage on full life, no way I am gonna pass up on that :)
I will think about letting go frenzy charges with jewel sockets but frenzy gives huge dmg buff, and I quickly get them when needed using frenzy skill. I will see how this build performs around lvl 90 or so, and might make changes then to optimize it further and your thread looks just the place to start :)
Thanks!
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Posted byTereng#1784on Dec 18, 2015, 9:36:06 AM
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Tereng wrote:
Legatus1982,
I haven't found any place in the wiki that mentions that added chaos damage buff is added to DOT damage. Could you post the link here, and the part of the description that says it is added to DOT buff. Without proper information we can't conclude if added chaos is better.
Now, I am not sure why you said rapid decay decreases damage by 15%. It reduces the duration by 15%, viper strike base DOT duration is 8 seconds, so that duration will be reduced by 15%, which can be easily countered by the passives such as dirty techniques. Also, imo rapid decay is really good, since it is more multiplier to complete DOT damage not just chaos part.
Also, I didn't understand comparison you made b/w increased duration and melee phy dmg. Increased duration will not increase the DOT dmg only the time duration the DOT stays on. The time with viper strike is anyways pretty good, 8 seconds, this is the reason increased duration is not used.
In terms of damage types, you want chaos damage buffs more than dot buffs because the initial hit has chaos damage in it (even if you don't use added chaos). Chaos buffs will double dip on that initial hit chaos damage while dot buffs will not.
As to your dot damage, if you don't have duration buffs from the skill tree, the 15% reduced duration is a plain 0.85 multiplier on the total dot damage, which directly counters the more multiplier from that gem.
For the wiki:
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Poison
It says right in there that chaos damage from the initial hit is added to the poison damage.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1456880#p11900230
You can also look right at the poison gem itself and see what it says:
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Poison_(support_gem)
It specifically mentions chaos damage.
The wiki for the added chaos gem has very likely not been updated to reflect the recent poison changes. We could ask ggg for clarification if needed.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
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Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on Dec 18, 2015, 10:04:21 AM
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Posted byLegatus1982#1658on Dec 18, 2015, 9:46:29 AM
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Yes you are right chaos damage does contribute to the poison, but added chaos damage as per the current wiki information is an exception to the rule. I will post in the poison forum page asking GGG for that until we don't get a positive response, we are not quite sure about the added chaos damage gem.
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Posted byTereng#1784on Dec 18, 2015, 10:22:53 AM
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I've asked the general help forums and the two responses both said added chaos support gem will also add to the dot damage. We don't have any official clarification, but really there are multiple sources stating chaos damage added to the hit also get added to the dot, so that's what I'm going with.
The only indication that would say otherwise is an outdated wiki for the added chaos gem itself, which since it hadn't changed I can see why it wouldn't be updated.
My conclusion is as it was before: added chaos adds to the dot and is the best support for viper strike.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
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Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on Dec 18, 2015, 2:46:14 PM
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Posted byLegatus1982#1658on Dec 18, 2015, 2:45:32 PM
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CI regen build
all CI build would need US, otherwise they will miss out all the nice stats on amulet/talisman
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Posted bylaburnum#4754on Dec 18, 2015, 3:05:49 PM
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Dude i had one question, y try this build right now on hc, and i am lvl 50 and i had 77% acuracy, in end game i ll have about 60%, how should i boost it with 120-130 dex in this tree?
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Posted byum6ullbijikoo#2245on Dec 21, 2015, 3:48:23 PM
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